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Explanations about mandatory U.S. S.A. membership #145123
06/08/08 09:38 PM
06/08/08 09:38 PM
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Toledo, Ohio (western end of ...
Mike Fahle Offline OP
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PROPOSED US SAILING PRESCRIPTION TO RULE 46
by Jim Capron, US SAILING President

Over the last two months, the US SAILING President and Board of Directors have received many comments and questions from sailors and volunteers all over the country. I have replied to many directly, but I also promised to
collate the questions into a Q&A on the US SAILING website. Here is the link to the website that provides answers to those questions. Most of the questions concern the proposed US SAILING Prescription to rule 46 (i.e.,
Mandatory Membership), but there are also questions about US SAILING in general. This page also contains the draft wording of the proposed new rule, as of May 23, 2008. This draft WILL change in the coming weeks, and we will update the web page accordingly. --
http://www2.ussailing.org/Universal_Membership___Questions_and_Answers.htm

Please also see the following link to answer the often asked question "what
does US SAILING do for me and the sport of sailing?" For all those who said
that US SAILING does not add enough value for you (or sailors in general), I
would appreciate comments on what we can add to the list in this second link
to provide that value. -- http://www2.ussailing.org/What_US_SAILING_Does.htm

-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: Explanations about mandatory U.S. S.A. membership [Re: Mike Fahle] #145124
06/09/08 06:28 AM
06/09/08 06:28 AM
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[quote]Unfortunately, US SAILING membership has been eroding since the beginning of this decade despite many attempts to reverse that trend. We have tried several strategies over the years to increase membership, mostly without success. In fact, the trend line has remained unchanged no matter what has been tried - new or rearranged benefits, increased marketing, a new electronic newsletter, full page ads in Sailing World, and a new video PodCast. Even lowering the cost of dues does not seem to change the trend.[quote]



Mike,

One of the reasons that USSA membership is dropping is that many individuals do not believe that they have been represented fairly and adequately by or within USSA. To others, it is the Olympic issue that drove a final wedge between USSA and a large contingent of sailors in this country. For me, I am still a paid USSA member and will continue to be, but I am extremely upset and disappointed with USSA and their actions, manipulations and behind the scenes deals. If there were another option similar to what the sailboaders have done, I would give my support there. I do not believe that this is the correct approach to building membership. I would first try to heal the wounds that USSA have created. Then USSA needs to honestly try to represent ALL of the sailing disciplines instead of just giving lip service to those that they do not support. Then they might recieve a better response from the sailing community at large.

Last edited by windswept; 06/09/08 06:33 AM.

Tom Siders
A-Cat USA-79
Tornado US775
Re: Explanations about mandatory U.S. S.A. members [Re: windswept] #145125
06/09/08 06:30 AM
06/09/08 06:30 AM
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Gulf Coast
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I don't think it's worth the effort... but your opinion should be directed to the person behind this, Jim Capron:

president@ussailing.org

Here's quoted my letter:
"Mr Capron

I am quite sure you've been apprised of just how disappointed the multihull community in the US is in your organisation, so I won't rehash.

I suggest very strongly that you abandon the mandatory requirement for individuals. Instead, return to the original mandate of servicing the YC and extract your penance from them.

This requires no answer, and yes I've been to the website and viewed the 'explanation.'

Good luck with your endeavours, enjoy the fruits of your labours

Tami Shelton
ex-member USSA
and I will quit racing before I renew USSA under your conditions."

Re: Explanations about mandatory U.S. S.A. members [Re: tami] #145126
06/09/08 07:17 AM
06/09/08 07:17 AM
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Netherlands
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"enjoy the fruits of your labours"

Good one!

Re: Explanations about mandatory U.S. S.A. members [Re: tami] #145127
06/09/08 07:35 AM
06/09/08 07:35 AM
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Key Largo, FL & Put-in-Bay, OH...
Mary Offline
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Tami,
I agree completely. Why can't they do it the way they always did before -- if you belong to a club or organization that belongs to US Sailing, part of your dues to that club or organization go to US Sailing and you are, therefore, by extension, a member of US Sailing?

Re: Explanations about mandatory U.S. S.A. membership [Re: Mike Fahle] #145128
06/09/08 08:24 AM
06/09/08 08:24 AM
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Lakewood, Colorado
MUST429 Offline
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My E-Mail to Mr. Capron

Jim,

Your organization has treated the entire multihull community with a great deal of disrespect. The vote against multihull participation in the Olympics was, for me the straw that broke the camel's back. Your organization will never see another dollar of MY hard earned money until you change that position.

Statistically speaking, there are very few sailors that need your organization more than you need them .
all you have really done is discouraged new sailors from competing.

One should know that if the "carrot and the sitck" didn't work, it is unlikely that the stick alone is going to be any more productive.

When begin listening to the sailors themselves, really LISTEN to what THEY want from the organization, and then respond in kind, making your organization relevant and beneficial to all, you will get the result you wish for.

Allowing the "old guard" to decide what THEY want, and then present it to the membership like we are supposed to swallow it like castor oil, then smile and say it tastes good hasn't worked thus far, why would you think that forcing sailors to swallow it is going to make it taste any better.

It seems to me that you have failed to take into consideration the "law of unintended consequences"

I rather suspect that in the long run, the result will not be what you had hoped for.

Stephen


Life is not about waiting for the storms to pass...
It's about learning to dance in the rain
Re: Explanations about mandatory U.S. S.A. members [Re: Mary] #145129
06/09/08 08:31 AM
06/09/08 08:31 AM
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Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline
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Clearly there is a huge amount of resisistance in paying for an organization that does not give you immediate benefit.

This sounds like the same calculus when it comes to paying your national OD class dues.

I wonder how many racing sailors pay their national class dues. (Every sanctioned Hobie Regatta requires NAHCA membership.... Every CBYRA YC requires membership in your Class....)
So do you join... Why or Why not?

At the Annapolis OD symposium, a 505 sailor said... well... 505 sailors only seem to pay their dues when they come to the nationals. no nationals... no dues collected.

If you are a local sailor who will only race regionally, why belong to your national class association?

I could make the argument that the my class dues should NOT go to running a nationals. Those costs should be borne by the sailors who attend not the general class. Class dues should be used for services that benefit all members of the class. Eg News magazine. web site, admin eg members list. Why should I join a class that spends most of the money on the small group going to the nationals.

I don't know the details of the NAHCA budget. But they clearly deliver a great magazine to all class members and they offer money for a guest expert program. I would guess they pay some dues money to support their nationals as well.

The Tornado class was completely different. I don't think they even sent out a single email (other then the one asking for class dues). They used the class money to pay their international dues (for worlds) and the rest to make two of the three Tornado regattas happen.

The F16 class doesn't collect any dues.

So, What is your position on joining your national class?


crac.sailregattas.com
Re: Explanations about mandatory U.S. S.A. members [Re: Mark Schneider] #145130
06/09/08 08:50 AM
06/09/08 08:50 AM
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Mary Offline
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AGAIN, I have to say that if you belong to a class or a club or Regional Yachting Assocation, or any type of organization that is a member of US Sailing, you should automatically be a member of US Sailing. Your dues to US Sailing should automatically be paid as a nominal part of your dues to whatever organization you belong to, if that organization is a member of US Sailing.
If you belong to several different sailng classes and organizations, you will be contributing to US Sailing from your memberships in all of those organizations.
So why should we have to pay individually, as well?
I still say US Sailing should reduce its overhead. They are saying they have plenty of money and don't need more members for money reasons. So WHY?

Re: Explanations about mandatory U.S. S.A. members [Re: Mary] #145131
06/09/08 09:03 AM
06/09/08 09:03 AM
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walkefmb Offline
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It would seem that you are using a common sense approach. This is clearly a good solution that is too obvious. That is unless you are required to join a yacht club or other sailing organization to play.

Last edited by walkefmb; 06/09/08 09:05 AM.

cedar tornado classic,
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1972 morgan 27
optidad
Re: Explanations about mandatory U.S. S.A. members [Re: Mary] #145132
06/09/08 09:10 AM
06/09/08 09:10 AM
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That's a good question, Mary, and where I was going with the 'extract the penance' remark, of course.

Have you written to Capron?

To the general group: take a trip over to Sailing Anarchy, where even the 'leaner boys' are pretty chapped at Capron's suggestion. Some interesting discourse...

Re: Explanations about mandatory U.S. S.A. members [Re: Mary] #145133
06/09/08 09:29 AM
06/09/08 09:29 AM
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Mark Schneider Offline
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Hi Mary,

I suspect they want the sailor to buy into the mission of the organiztion and have a stake in belonging.

Same reason a Class Association wants you to join at the begining of the year and not just pay for nationals at the nationals. They want you to be on board with the mission.

Since these are all volunteer organziations... it's essential to contribute dues and join the organization, otherwise you are stiffing the volunteers.

It's down right insulting to view these things as simply purchasing a service... as if you were going to Walmart and not Costco.

We could not afford saililboat racing if we had to pay for everyones on registration, race committe for their time, much less the equipment and storage of the equipment to run a race on the open market.

I think every sailing organization looses when you calculate.... Fee for service... Oh.. that's a Good value.... or US Sailing... that's a bad value, I don't get anything for that. (Think about it... is John Williams' time, energy and skll on the MHC valuable to you?..... How about Darline Hobock's time and energy making the PN system work YEAR AFTER YEAR)

Speaking as a volunteer... you could not afford to pay for the time I put into sailing organizations.

I have a very dim view of freeloaders who don't join the organizations AND volunteer to make the organization succesful.

That's not to say that you can't disagree with the organizations funamental mission or strategy and choose not join . I think you need to have the option to pay the surcharge at the door. Then it is your choice to pay a fee for service... (eg. Pay 10% more to the YC if you are not a USSA member).

Mark

Last edited by Mark Schneider; 06/09/08 09:34 AM.

crac.sailregattas.com
Re: Explanations about mandatory U.S. S.A. members [Re: Mary] #145134
06/09/08 09:35 AM
06/09/08 09:35 AM
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Quote
Tami,
I agree completely. Why can't they do it the way they always did before -- if you belong to a club or organization that belongs to US Sailing, part of your dues to that club or organization go to US Sailing and you are, therefore, by extension, a member of US Sailing?


I guess since most multihull sailors are not members of Yacht Clubs (which don't usually cater to beach-catters anyway), perhaps US Sailing sees a potential revenue stream?


Jay

Re: Explanations about mandatory U.S. S.A. members [Re: Mark Schneider] #145135
06/09/08 09:52 AM
06/09/08 09:52 AM
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MUST429 Offline
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Quote
Speaking as a volunteer... you could not afford to pay for the time I put into sailing organizations.

I have a very dim view of freeloaders who don't join the organizations AND volunteer to make the organization succesful.


I can say the same thing. I spend countless hours each year supporting my Class, Fleet, Division, and National Organization. I do it out of a love for the sport and the boat. However should any one of those organizations treat me like a second class citizen, ignore my input, and then demand my money, I would vote with my feet and leave. To continue to belong and participate would, in my mind, imply that I approve of the way they are doing business.
I have been known to be a bit stiff necked about things of this nature, and at my age, I am unlikely to change.
This does not mean that I agree with everything that the organizations I do belong to says or does.
In my opinion, USSA has intentionally and with malice, treated the multihull community with an obvious lack of respect, that I cannot and will not contiune to ignore.

If that makes me a freeloader, so be it.

Stephen


Life is not about waiting for the storms to pass...
It's about learning to dance in the rain
Re: Explanations about mandatory U.S. S.A. members [Re: waterbug_wpb] #145136
06/09/08 09:53 AM
06/09/08 09:53 AM
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Mary Offline
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Well, US Sailing has not had much revenue in the past from multihull sailors, so I don't think they can expect much in the future, considering..... <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

Re: Explanations about mandatory U.S. S.A. members [Re: tami] #145137
06/09/08 10:30 AM
06/09/08 10:30 AM
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I believe it is customary that you can belong to 'any' country's sailing associationg and sail in their sactioned races. What if people just joined another 'pro-catamaran' sailing association as a protest? (There was a time when I was member of USA, Slovenia, and Italian simultaniously)

Matt Mayfield

Re: Explanations about mandatory U.S. S.A. members [Re: MUST429] #145138
06/09/08 10:42 AM
06/09/08 10:42 AM
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interesting quote from the Q&A..
"The sport of sailing is made up of a wide range of sailors. From kiteboarding, frostbiting, team or match racing to PHRF/IRC/ORR, offshore one design, windsurfing, and cruising to high-performance skiffs, and many more; US SAILING is expected to serve each and every single one of these categories."

No catarmaran sections mentioned. So guess you aren't expected to join.. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Re: Explanations about mandatory U.S. S.A. members [Re: mayhem] #145139
06/09/08 11:15 AM
06/09/08 11:15 AM
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Asuncion, Paraguay
Luiz Offline
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Quote
I believe it is customary that you can belong to 'any' country's sailing associationg and sail in their sactioned races. What if people just joined another 'pro-catamaran' sailing association as a protest? (There was a time when I was member of USA, Slovenia, and Italian simultaniously)


You certainly can.

There's more: if you never officialy competed representing the US/USSailing, you can compete representing another country and its federation, if you follow their rules (residence in the country or something simmilar, usually).

Also, if you are affiliated to a foreign federation and compete in the US, US Sailing can not force you to pay them, otherwise your federation would (could) retaliate and do the same with US athletes competing in their races.

That said, many small central American and Caribbean countries would be happy to host US sailors. Not to mention Mexico, Canada, Cuba(!), etc.


Luiz
Re: Explanations about mandatory U.S. S.A. members [Re: tami] #145140
06/09/08 11:16 AM
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Mary,

At the spring meeting, Jim did say that they are actively seeking a course as you describe. In fact, on the web link at the top of this thread, he says this:

"In conjunction with any new membership requirement, we are working with affiliated organizations to find new ways to make it easier for sailing to join US SAILING for even less money."

What this would realistically mean is that some amount of money would be added to your class association (or YC) dues, which would then be paid by the class (or club) on your behalf to USSA.

In reality, I don't know how popular this would be. On one hand, it would make joining USSA easier, but may hurt the class membership numbers, since the dues could rise dramatically.

For example, HCA costs $35 per year. Even if they cut USSA's dues in half, that would raise the cost to $65 per year. For a sailor who attends one race per year, that's a pretty big hit.

Mike

Re: Explanations about mandatory U.S. S.A. members [Re: brucat] #145141
06/09/08 12:47 PM
06/09/08 12:47 PM
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MUST429 Offline
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In a message dated 6/9/2008 10:02:39 A.M. Mountain Standard Time, JCapron@capron.com writes:

Stephen,

Thanks for the comments. US SAILING was confronted with a decision at the ISAF meeting. The choice was between the keelboat and the multihull. We had three choices - vote for the keelboat, vote for the multihull, or abstain (not vote for either). Those were not good choices. We voted in favor of the keelboat and in the process, made a lot of multihull sailors angry. Neither of the other two choices would have satisfied everyone. Let's move on.

Beyond the multihull issue, is there anything we can add to the list of what US SAILING does? Is there anything in that list that should not be there?

Jim


And my reply:

Jim,

From your own question and answer page, and I quote.

"The sport of sailing is made up of a wide range of sailors. From kiteboarding, frostbiting, team or match racing to PHRF/IRC/ORR, offshore one design, windsurfing, and cruising to high-performance skiffs, and many more; US SAILING is expected to serve each and every single one of these categories."

NO Mention of Catamaran or multihull.

You continue to treat multihull sailors like second class citizens even in your attempt to strengthen your organization.

Quite honestly, given your decision to throw us as a group under the bus internationally, there is nothing else you have to offer that I could consider important enough to overlook the shabby way we have been treated in the past and will, given your current mind set, apparently continue to be treated in the future.

Quite honestly, your organization has made it crystal clear you don't need us, and speaking for only myself, it is my feeling I don't need your organization.

Stephen


Life is not about waiting for the storms to pass...
It's about learning to dance in the rain
Re: Explanations about mandatory U.S. S.A. members [Re: MUST429] #145142
06/09/08 12:54 PM
06/09/08 12:54 PM
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ThunderMuffin Offline
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Quote
Thanks for the comments. US SAILING was confronted with a decision at the ISAF meeting. The choice was between the keelboat and the multihull. We had three choices - vote for the keelboat, vote for the multihull, or abstain (not vote for either). Those were not good choices.


Wasn't the reason they were put in this position in the first place because they changed the voting process at the 11th hour?

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