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National F104 Challenge #145523
06/11/08 06:31 PM
06/11/08 06:31 PM
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 910
Dublin, Ireland
Dermot Offline OP
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Dermot  Offline OP
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Dublin, Ireland
Quote from Macca:
"The F17 that won the 104 nationals in France just a few weeks ago was weighed by the FFV (French national ferderation) and it was 159kg."

Quote from the Spitfire site:
"The first national formula 1.04 challenge took place in Lorrient Brittany at the weekend. Five maufacturers Nacra, Hobie, Cirrus, Mattia and Swell Spitfire were represented. Thirty teams took part. Spitfires took the top two positions with five boats in the top ten."

How many "Nationals" were there ?


Dermot
Catapult 265
www.catamaran.ie
-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: National F104 Challenge *DELETED* [Re: Dermot] #145524
06/11/08 06:55 PM
06/11/08 06:55 PM
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 502
Port Noarlunga, SA, Australia
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Darryn Offline
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Post deleted by Darryn

Re: National F104 Challenge [Re: Darryn] #145525
06/11/08 07:48 PM
06/11/08 07:48 PM
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 88
South Australia
Phile Offline
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Phile  Offline
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South Australia
The F16 forum "police" are quite active at shutting down discussion they don't like, it seems.

Re: National F104 Challenge [Re: Phile] #145526
06/12/08 02:20 AM
06/12/08 02:20 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
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Australia
macca Offline
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Only one nationals as far as I know...

Results are here: http://class104.over-blog.org/article-19589531-6.html#

F17 won 5 of the 6 races.

28 entries so it was a proper event too, unlike some other intergalactic tournaments <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />


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Re: National F104 Challenge [Re: macca] #145527
06/12/08 03:09 AM
06/12/08 03:09 AM
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 910
Dublin, Ireland
Dermot Offline OP
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Quote
Only one nationals as far as I know...

Results are here: http://class104.over-blog.org/article-19589531-6.html#

F17 won 5 of the 6 races.

28 entries so it was a proper event too, unlike some other intergalactic tournaments <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Freddy was sailing a Spitfire the last time I saw him - I wonder when he changed to a F17 <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />


Dermot
Catapult 265
www.catamaran.ie
Re: National F104 Challenge [Re: Dermot] #145528
06/12/08 03:29 AM
06/12/08 03:29 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,021
Australia
macca Offline
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Got smart I guess <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

The French dealer loaned them a boat for the event and they didn't want to give it back!


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Re: National F104 Challenge [Re: Phile] #145529
06/12/08 03:52 AM
06/12/08 03:52 AM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 953
Western Australia
Stewart Offline
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phile [censored] stirring again?.. What was asked is for F17 chat to go to the F17 or general forums...

Re: National F104 Challenge [Re: Stewart] #145530
06/12/08 04:23 AM
06/12/08 04:23 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,021
Australia
macca Offline
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What happened in the F16 forum is typical of the group... If the discussion isn't pro F16 then they shut it down.

So now thay are left with the exciting stuff like: "What colour battens match my eyes?"


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Re: National F104 Challenge [Re: macca] #145531
06/12/08 04:32 AM
06/12/08 04:32 AM
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 539
taipanfc Offline
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Quote
"What colour battens match my eyes?"


I always thought blue battens were best for me, with black close behind. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> Really have to persist on this and have even changed sailmakers in the past when they wouldn't want to go along with the request. Serious stuff batten colours.

Re: National F104 Challenge [Re: taipanfc] #145532
06/12/08 04:39 AM
06/12/08 04:39 AM
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 52
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GBR6 Offline
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But we all know that red ones are fastest, and I've got the scientific proof to back it up

Re: National F104 Challenge [Re: macca] #145533
06/12/08 05:11 AM
06/12/08 05:11 AM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 953
Western Australia
Stewart Offline
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Western Australia
BULL....

There is an F17 forum.. Which is the appropriate forum for F17/F104 discussions..

Re: National F104 Challenge [Re: GBR6] #145534
06/12/08 05:20 AM
06/12/08 05:20 AM
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 539
taipanfc Offline
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Quote
But we all know that red ones are fastest, and I've got the scientific proof to back it up


Can you please send through. I would be interested to read, otherwise it's all hearsay.

Re: National F104 Challenge [Re: taipanfc] #145535
06/12/08 05:43 AM
06/12/08 05:43 AM
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 1
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OZCAT Offline
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**** all yuou want”


Quote
johnfullerton
“Is this the normal way of most discussion.

One of the founders of the F16 class defining it.

People with close links to other manufactures attacking it.

If you do not like the class, why not keep posting on a f16 forum.

There must be forums for the f104,f18,and tornado somewhere.”


Quote
Macca
“John,

I was not attacking the class in any way.

I was simply pointing out a gross error on Wouters part. He made a claim that was patently untrue and now he refuses to proove his claim even though I have asked several times now.

The internet is a funny place, anyone can make claims about anything but when they are asked to show proof they go quiet on the issue... Kind of shows what kind of people they are doesn't it.”


Quote
Rolf Nilsen
“The appropriate places for the different topics in this thread is..

Open forum: http://www.catsailor.com/forums/postlist.php?Cat=0&Board=Test
F18 forum: http://www.catsailor.com/forums/postlist.php?Cat=0&Board=F18
F17 forum: http://www.catsailor.com/forums/postlist.php?Cat=0&Board=Formula17

That is, if you really want to discuss like this.”



Thread locked.
Re: National F104 Challenge [Re: OZCAT] #145536
06/12/08 06:01 AM
06/12/08 06:01 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
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Ozcat,

I see you are leaving some parts out in your list of quotations.

For anybody who wants to read the full thread go to :

http://www.catsailor.com/forums/sho...er=148022&Main=147950#Post148022

It is still there on the F16 forum.

Wouter


Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: National F104 Challenge [Re: Wouter] #145537
06/12/08 06:17 AM
06/12/08 06:17 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,021
Australia
macca Offline
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macca  Offline
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I think the important parts of the thread are copied above.

Now its about time Wouter posted the measurement certificate of the 135kg F17.

But if he can't find it I understand, just another example of Wouter making claims that are patently untrue.


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Re: National F104 Challenge [Re: OZCAT] #145538
06/12/08 06:58 AM
06/12/08 06:58 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
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Quote


The conversation went downhill when Wouter had a dig at the F17, whilst praising the F16 class and it’s superiority to other classes.

Quote

And it should be as it is resembling the F16's more and more.
The only difference between it and the F16 now is the mast length (+0.5 mtr), hull length (+0.20 mtr) and the weight (+25 kg). In itself these differences are quite small overall and hence the handicap is only a few points slower then the F16.





Actually I was only saying how the newest version of the Nacra 17 design; the EU variant of the F17 which is different from the US F17 variant, is closely resembling the F16 specs.

But I have to correct one error on my side. The F17 hulls are 0.25 mtr (=10 inches) longer instead of only 0.20 mtr (=8 inches).


However what is more interesting is the almost panick like reaction to my claim that several Nacra 17's were measured to be around 135 kg when fully rigged. In itself an attractive spec. The opposition seems to strongly favour the number 159 kg. I honestly couldn't figure out why this is.

That is till I checked up on the measurement of the EU F17 version at the F104 webblog. The specs were there given as :

source : http://class104.over-blog.org/pages/Mesures_des_principeaux_104-33825.html


Weight ready to sail : 159 kg
length : 5.25 mtr.
width : 2.5 mtr.
Mainsail area : 15.34 sq. mtr.
Luff length : 8.69 mtr.
Jib area : 3.75 mtr.
Jib Luff : 5.34 mtr.
Spi area : 18.98 sq. mtr.
Daggerboard area : 0.16 sq. mtr.
Daggerboard luff : 0.8 mtr

SCHRS rating : 1.035 (= F104)


However when I punch in a weight of 158.7 kg, 300 grams (2/3rd of lbs) lighter then the acclaimed 159 kg then the rating drops below 1.035 and the F17 EU version is no longer a F104 !

That would allow any F104 result by the F17 EU version to be protested and disqualified. Punch in the 135 kg and the rating ends up at SCHRS = 1.009

Note how the F16 SCHRS rating = 1.008 and the F16 has the following specs :


Weight ready to sail : 107 kg (measurements of 2007/2008 boats show 105 - 112 kg)
length : 5.00 mtr.
width : 2.5 mtr.
Mainsail area : 15.00 sq. mtr.
Luff length : 8.10 mtr.
Jib area : 3.70 mtr.
Jib Luff : 5.45 mtr.
Spi area : 17.50 sq. mtr.
Daggerboard area : 0.16 sq. mtr.
Daggerboard luff : 0.75 mtr

SCHRS rating : 1.008 (= NOT F104)


Note how the previous (7) versions of the Nacra 17's have moved through the specs :

Mainsail area : 13.68 sq. mtr -> 16.44 sq. mtr. -> 15.34 sq. mtr. .... = now 102% of F16
Jib area : 3.40 sq. mtr -> 3.75 sq. mtr. .... = now 101 % of F16
Jib luff : 5.00 mtr -> 5.35 mtr .... = now 97% of F16
Daggerboard area : 0.199 sq. mtr -> 0.16 sq. mtr .... = now 100% of F16
Daggerboard depth : 0.982 mtr -> 0.80 .... = now on average 103% of F16

(All less then 3% differences)


And notice the path taken by the naming : Inter 17 -> Inter 17R -> Nacra 17 -> Nacra F17 -> F17


The only differing specs remaining are.

Hull length : 0.25 mtr => 105% of F16
Mainsail luff : 0.59 mtr => 107% of F16
Mast length : 0.55 mtr => 106% of F16
Spi are : 1.5 sq. mtr. => 109% of F16

(all less then 10% differences)

and

Weight : Claimed by Nacra 52 kg => 149 % of F16
Weight : Claimed by Wouter 25-30 kg => on average 126% of F16


Anybody else noticing the similarities ? And the exceptional offset of the ready to sail weight compared to all the other specs ? I distinctly remember being rediculed on this very forum back in 2002/2003 when I claimed the I-17 boards were to large and too long for a singlehanded boat. Turns out the designers have come to agree with me as they have reduced the nacra 17 boards in area by 25% and in length by 20% to arrive at almost smack identical dimensions as the average F16 board !


Coming from the US Inter-17R design where the differences to the F16's were typically in the range of 10%-30% depending on the spec analysed we have converged to a situation where all the specs except weight are less then 10% with 5 out of 9 items are different by 3% or less !

I call that convergence. And since the F16 class has remained the same in its specs since 2003 (when 14.85 sq. mtr mainsail area was rounded off to 15.00 sq. mtr) it must be that the Nacra 17 design is converging to the F16 specs and I don't think that coincidence can be blamed for that.


Actually I never claimed superiority of the F16 class per se, I only claimed (and have done so for many years) that the F16 class is reflecting an optimal point in catamaran design that is hard to beat; hence the equality in performance between it and the F18 class and the fact that F18's shame so many ultimate all-carbon design in regatta's. Of course this situation is determined by a given set of a few basic design choices. One of which is the 1-up/2-up versatility, this limits the amount of mainsail area and board area as these need to be such that the boat still works well for a singlehanded crew. Another is the choice to have the boat trailer horizontally within a world wide legal limit (2.5 mtr). It seems that the evolution of the Nacra 17 design is finding the same optimal point (of specs).

Personally I think this to be great. Mostly because the Nacra 17's that are around 135 kg (and have SCHRS = 1.009) can now level race F18's (SCHRS = 1.005) and F16's (SCHRS = 1.008); first over the line wins.

Maybe we should forget about this F104 class and form a F101 (= Level F18 ) class instead ?

And I must admit that I find the new EU version of the F17 specs (except the overall acclaimed weight) alot more attractive from a sailors perspective. I'm convinced this variant will behave very well as it appears the balance between the specs is better then before. Especially for a solo sailor.

Wouter

Last edited by Wouter; 06/12/08 07:29 AM.
Re: National F104 Challenge [Re: Wouter] #145539
06/12/08 07:12 AM
06/12/08 07:12 AM
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 539
taipanfc Offline
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This thread was hijacked earlier and were discussing battens and the respective fast colours!

Re: National F104 Challenge [Re: taipanfc] #145540
06/12/08 07:18 AM
06/12/08 07:18 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
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Wouter  Offline
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Quote

This thread was hijacked earlier and were discussing battens and the respective fast colours!



Please continue in that direction. There is no reason why a thread can have only one single tangent.

Wouter


Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: National F104 Challenge [Re: Wouter] #145541
06/12/08 07:47 AM
06/12/08 07:47 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,021
Australia
macca Offline
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macca  Offline
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Australia
So Wouter,

In your extreeeemly long and wandering post above you are basically saying that the F17 is designed and optimised for the 104 rule. and that is correct. The boat is a very potent 104 machine and the results show that an optimised boat for a rating is a winning boat.

Much the same as it would be for a F16 that is heavy to be re rated based on its weight and therfore getting a better handicap.

Simple hey? The rules are published and people can optimise to the rule but still have freedom to change paramaters that suit them as long as they fit the rule.

Oh, and please dont try to claim that F16 had anything at all to do with the optimisation of the F17. 104 was the goal from the outset and the results have proven that its been worthwhile.

So how about you post that measurement certificate for the 135kg F17?


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Re: National F104 Challenge [Re: macca] #145542
06/12/08 08:04 AM
06/12/08 08:04 AM
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 2,921
Michigan
PTP Offline
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Michigan
can we have a
"Formula Macca and Wouter" forum started?

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