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Rudder Alignment #146096
06/17/08 06:16 PM
06/17/08 06:16 PM
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 1,403
V
Ventucky Red Offline OP
veteran
Ventucky Red  Offline OP
veteran
V

Joined: May 2004
Posts: 1,403
Anyone have recommendations for the rudder alignment on a Prindle 18-2 – leading edge in or out?

Thanks

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Re: Rudder Alignment [Re: Ventucky Red] #146097
06/17/08 06:27 PM
06/17/08 06:27 PM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 93
virginia beach, VA
dsltrc Offline
journeyman
dsltrc  Offline
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 93
virginia beach, VA
go with a 1/16 to 1/8 of toe in....


Jason DiPietro supercat 19
Re: Rudder Alignment [Re: dsltrc] #146098
06/18/08 05:24 PM
06/18/08 05:24 PM
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 30
P
PeelSkid Offline
newbie
PeelSkid  Offline
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P

Joined: May 2008
Posts: 30
I would if I knew what that ment???

Re: Rudder Alignment [Re: PeelSkid] #146099
06/18/08 09:43 PM
06/18/08 09:43 PM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 190
lesburn1 Offline
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lesburn1  Offline
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 190
Lash the tiller cross bar to something so that the rudders appear to be straight ahead. Then with a pencil draw a line
parallel to the waterline down X inches from the bottom of the hull. (this presumes that the rudders are locked in the down position, right <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> )
Now measure the distance between the center of the leading edges at the line, and also the trailing edges.
If the rudders have no toe in than the distance should be the same. 1/8th inch of toe in would mean that the leading edge is less then the trailing edge by 1/8th inch.
You can check your Ackerman steering in pretty much the same way just move your tiller over half way and measure again.
For the basics, go to
http://www.rctek.com/handling/ackerman_steering_principle.html


lesburn1.blogspot.com

A-Cat USA 49
18Sq 49

member- Royal Society for Making Cool Stuff
Re: Rudder Alignment [Re: Ventucky Red] #146100
06/18/08 10:39 PM
06/18/08 10:39 PM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 1,200
Vancouver, BC
Tornado Offline
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Tornado  Offline
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Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 1,200
Vancouver, BC
Old Skool T drivers used to setup 1-3mm of toe-in. Theory was that you wanted the windward blade at zero angle when flying hull/blade nearly all the way out. Typically haveing some weather helm applied, putting the leeward blade angled to weather a few degrees, placing the weather blade dead center (due to ackerman effect).

Nowadays, most of the fleet goes with zero toe in.


Mike Dobbs
Tornado CAN 99 "Full Tilt"
Re: Rudder Alignment [Re: Tornado] #146101
06/19/08 06:39 AM
06/19/08 06:39 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Jake  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Quote
Old Skool T drivers used to setup 1-3mm of toe-in. Theory was that you wanted the windward blade at zero angle when flying hull/blade nearly all the way out. Typically haveing some weather helm applied, putting the leeward blade angled to weather a few degrees, placing the weather blade dead center (due to ackerman effect).

Nowadays, most of the fleet goes with zero toe in.


The ackerman angle is due to the fact that the rudder arms, as they leave the head of the rudder, are bent inward toward each other. When turning, this makes the outside rudder turn less and the inside turn more (in theory because the outside hull is going to need to sweep through a larger radius). Ackerman angle doesn't have anything to do with alignment (EDIT: when pointing straight ahead).

The explanation I've always heard is, as you say, when flying a hull if you watch the windward rudder enter the water; with toe-in, it enters the water cleanly...with them both aligned perfectly straight, you see the rudder enter the water with a degree of misalignment.

My feeling, is that I want both rudders working to steer the boat - not just one. The fact that they both point in the same direction should be a good thing. When flying a hull, the one rudder has to carry the load of the whole boat (imagine what it would look like entering the water)...I would rather have both of them working together resulting in a (slightly) lower angle of attack for both.


Jake Kohl
Re: Rudder Alignment [Re: Ventucky Red] #146102
06/19/08 07:24 AM
06/19/08 07:24 AM
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 2,921
Michigan
PTP Offline
Carpal Tunnel
PTP  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 2,921
Michigan
I aim for about 6 inches of toe in, I get scared if I go too fast. On the 31 I go with about 9 inches.
<img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Last edited by PTP; 06/19/08 07:48 AM.
Re: Rudder Alignment [Re: Jake] #146103
06/19/08 01:53 PM
06/19/08 01:53 PM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 1,200
Vancouver, BC
Tornado Offline
veteran
Tornado  Offline
veteran

Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 1,200
Vancouver, BC
My point about ackerman was that with a toe-in angle setitng, while the leeward blade is slightly angled to weather countering boat wanting to turn off wind (ie weather helm), the windward blade is at the dead center/zero angle...the blades don't turn equally at the same angle due to ackerman angle settings of the tillers.

Otherwise, I think we agree... <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />


Quote
Quote
Old Skool T drivers used to setup 1-3mm of toe-in. Theory was that you wanted the windward blade at zero angle when flying hull/blade nearly all the way out. Typically haveing some weather helm applied, putting the leeward blade angled to weather a few degrees, placing the weather blade dead center (due to ackerman effect).

Nowadays, most of the fleet goes with zero toe in.


The ackerman angle is due to the fact that the rudder arms, as they leave the head of the rudder, are bent inward toward each other. When turning, this makes the outside rudder turn less and the inside turn more (in theory because the outside hull is going to need to sweep through a larger radius). Ackerman angle doesn't have anything to do with alignment (EDIT: when pointing straight ahead).

The explanation I've always heard is, as you say, when flying a hull if you watch the windward rudder enter the water; with toe-in, it enters the water cleanly...with them both aligned perfectly straight, you see the rudder enter the water with a degree of misalignment.

My feeling, is that I want both rudders working to steer the boat - not just one. The fact that they both point in the same direction should be a good thing. When flying a hull, the one rudder has to carry the load of the whole boat (imagine what it would look like entering the water)...I would rather have both of them working together resulting in a (slightly) lower angle of attack for both.


Mike Dobbs
Tornado CAN 99 "Full Tilt"
Re: Rudder Alignment [Re: Tornado] #146104
06/19/08 03:36 PM
06/19/08 03:36 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Jake  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
I dunno if we agree or not <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" /> ... and it's a silly little point but you can align rudders perfectly straight even with ackerman built into the rudder heads. Only when you start to turn do the rudders become "mis-aligned".

But I think I see what you're saying in that even when you do align them straight (on dry land), when sailing, you have to turn them slightly to maintain heading...which then gives you a slight toe-in when under sail. I hadn't thought of that...hmmm...perhaps a little toe-out is in order <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />


Jake Kohl
Re: Rudder Alignment [Re: PTP] #146105
06/20/08 04:25 PM
06/20/08 04:25 PM
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 5
Fleet 204, Syracuse NY
grizzlyadam Offline
stranger
grizzlyadam  Offline
stranger

Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 5
Fleet 204, Syracuse NY
I tried the 6 inches of toe in once, when I accidentally put my rudders on reversed after returning from a race. The whole way upwind I kept hollaring at my crew that something felt wrong, something must be wrong with the boat. Then we turned downwind, and I was throwing 6 ft rooster tails off the rudders. (Mind you this was day before Hurricane Isabel, and we had a good breeze)


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