Following up on my own post. Would T foil rudders have been a benefit that day? Less hobby horsing and less pitching when going over a wave?

I would guess the T foils won't have any effect because of the low speed.

Gill

T's do help as the dampen it.

As for defining chop, what I gon my lake is "chop" foot+ high and about (well it feels like) about 5 feet apart - I'm sure they are further apart but it feels like slam, slam, slam uphill and dive dive downhill...

Classic example; about 12kts wind, waves about 10 feet apart.

Hi Pete,

what I learnt on the Dart 18 (which is one of the poorest boats I have ever sailed in chop) is to keep the bows down, e.g. go for a proper weight trim. That means not just go or sit more forward, it means constantly moving forward and backward to keep the boat level. On the wire it is easy, if you or you crew is sitting it can be more difficult depending on your deck layout (trapez shock cords, dagger boards, etc.). If possible let one hull fly, adjust the trim to do it. But most important is longitudinal weight trim.
On the Javelin 16 it is a bit more relaxed, to my surprise. I still have to keep the weight forward, but I don't need to run as much a long the hull as on the Dart 18.
On a Tiger or a Tornado, I felt like on Queen Mary, my weight didn't affect the boat... but maybe I have a different perception because I was used to sail the Dart.

Cheers,

Klaus

Klaus,

did you ever try to do the "wild thing" downwind on the Dart18 in chop or waves? <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Simon,

the spi in the picture you posted, is that the old spi or the new GP?

<img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />
...test the drysuit and how many bruises you may bear. But have to admit that I had also some really bad expierence <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />.

some nice shots
Not me in the picture.

I was really sceptical, if I should replace my Dart, because I felt I would miss its strong wind capability. Now we are going step by step to stronger winds with the Javelin. Last trip my wife, who didn't sail for four years, helmed it under spi and constantly dove the bow till the front beam (heeling up high, bearing away, diving...), the boat is well-behaved, she tasted blood and no chance to stop her from smiling over the whole face for the next two days. So I don't miss the Dart, especially not in light winds and chop.

Cheers,

Klaus

That one is the old one. New one is flatter.

It would be interesting to see a shot from about the same angle, or from a distance, to check out the difference in the flying shape of the luff. It looks like there was quite some curve in the old spi.

Yes, the Landy kite flew best with a very soft luff. The GP one flies better with a tight luff.

That is my experience as well. Keep the speed and pressure up on the F16 and it will ride the chop relatively well. Once you slow down to almost a stop then it is all over. Sometimes I also move along the hull in an opposite motion to the chop. Like this you can stop the hobby horsing in one movement but your timing has to be right.

Wouter

I realize it is a different, longer boat but we had a day at the last "A" World's where the chop was still quite nasty but the wind was very light (6 maybe??)- being used to light wind it was my best race but my technique was to do everything I could to get the weather hull out of the water and chop- I was inboard, just beside mast, with fair amount of mast rotation, fairly loose foot and steering through/over the waves as someone else posted- I did very well upwind with this technique, downwind was tough- tried to stay fairly "hot", sat against the boom to keep rig slopping to a minimum, and wished I had a chute! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Kirt

There was a relatively strong current running with the chop. Which makes for the worst possible conditions for me.

Any advice on dealing with currents?

Try to find out which direction they are going vs your desired direction-
If it is against you then you want to stay out of the current as much as possible- ie tacking close to shore in shallow water vs long tacks out into a channel where the current is typically greater, MUST take into account when you try to judge your tacking/jibing angles. When the current is with you then you want to stay in it as much as possible- ie stay out in the channel and not in the shallow water, still need to adjust your tacking/jibing angles. Prior to the start sail near a bouy/anchored boat/piling and you can get an idea of the current direction and speed. During the race check this as well since if tidal it will change during the day- if river usually doesn't unless close to coast, along beach can also change with location ("rip" currents, etc.).

Hope that helped some-

Kirt

Thanks Cap'n! That is helpful, of course my problem is the Atlantic Ocean; specifically the Daytona area. Our weather mark was far enough off shore, that the current was strong in some areas, not so much in others. Not easy for me to figure. Didn't seem to bother the top three boats though. Guess that's why they were on top!

Pete-
Another way to try to figure out which way it is running is if you can take a "transit"- ie sight between two stationary objects on one tack vs the other- all boats "sideslip" a bit but it should be noticeably worse on one tack vs the other- whichever it is worse on is the direction the current is moving- of course this only works for "cross currents". If you have a compass aboard you can use it as well to take a bearing and get the same information.

Kirt

Pete, I'm reading your original post ,
"I have difficulty with chop.

I sail with my mast straight up. Tback and Brett Moss, among others, have suggested a little rake will help.

I've been too stubborn to try it. What do the rest of you think. "

Not having racing credentials my opinion may not be of interest, but I am one who likes the mast as far foreword as possible. Being on the light side and solo I find the limitation to rake is that when the wind blows white caps the bows will start digging in and I'm way back on the hull.

Two weeks ago I was lucky enough to be sailing with Andrew (and Elizabeth) and their Taipan 4.9. Northern New Mexico is stuck in a high pressure system this time of year and when the one storm cloud in four days arrived we were both out in the white caps. (I had rigged my fore stay into the second hole from the bottom.) I de-powered and was trying to go fast but the bow kept digging in. When the wind lightened a bit Andrew popped the spin and it was a race down to the east end of Heron Lake. Again the bows were diving, up to the beam in one instance, so he got way ahead. We ran out of lake and started tacking back but apparently there had been a wind shift as the chop was that of confused seas, maybe two feet, close together but not organized into waves, it was just chop. Every pitch foreword and aft broke the air flow and the boat went nowhere. So I'm there remembering, "get your weight on the center of the boat to reduce the pitching" i.e. main beam. So I'm there remembering something Matt M posted about the importance of hull speed and I'm laying off and moving foreword, I am thinking this is the condition where the Blade's hull design should outperform the Taipan but I can't get my weight (135 pounds) foreword enough to minimize the pitching because the pole is raked too far foreword and the bows keep digging into the water. Had there been less wind I could have gotten to the center of the boat and minimized the effect of the chop.

Pete, I don't know if this applies, but if you can't get to the center of the boat (length wise, buoyancy wise) because the bows are digging in then raking the mast back toward the rear is in order. Other wise, if it's light air try traveler out, at least a foot.

Thanks for the advice, Will, and it sounds like you had a pretty good time!

Hey Tikipete, I'm also a supporter of rake. When I first got my viper, the mast was pretty upright on the first sail, however as we raked is back 2 holes, the load on the rudder increased and the helm increased a little, but the boat sails sooooo much better upwind, and I can literally feel the boat lifting upwind by itself with it's foils loaded rather than having to try to steer the very neutral feeling boat upwind which is really slow because of all the rudder movement.

Also in chop, I tend to let of my main a little, not only to sail lower through the chop but also because as the rig stands up straight it seems to power up (of course beyond a certain point easing the main more means the main loses power instead).

Of course not sure if all this applies on the Blade. We'll do some experiments here in Singapore and see what the difference is with the blade from the viper.

T Pete, Yes it was fun and a bit challenging. Only wish there were more of us in the region. More of us would include F 18. Hope Tropical Storm Faye didn't hurt you too much. Looked like Titusville got pretty well slobbered.
Will