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Adjustable Diamonds #146673
06/25/08 08:36 AM
06/25/08 08:36 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline OP
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Jake  Offline OP
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I'm trying to gather some information for setting up adjustable diamond wire tension on my A-cat. It has an applied composites mast (which I'm guessing is now FibreFoam) and the diamond wires go through the bottom mast plate to individual nuts on the underside...it's a real PIA to adjust tension. I want to go to the modern a-cat adjustable "from the wire" tensioning system with the lever arm and purchase and such...I'm pretty handy with composites and fabrication, but I don't want to jump into this without doing a little research (i.e. drilling holes in my carbon mast). Can anyone shed some light or point me to some resources?


Jake Kohl
-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: Adjustable Diamonds [Re: Jake] #146674
06/25/08 08:44 AM
06/25/08 08:44 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 623
Gulf Coast
tami Offline
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contact Mischa Heemskerk... his dad was working on that, some years ago

Re: Adjustable Diamonds [Re: tami] #146675
06/25/08 09:39 AM
06/25/08 09:39 AM
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Posts: 2,584
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Tony_F18 Offline
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Quote
contact Mischa Heemskerk... his dad was working on that, some years ago

Mischa just launched a new website, his contact details should be up there: www.mischaheemskerk.com

Re: Adjustable Diamonds [Re: Tony_F18] #146676
06/25/08 10:16 AM
06/25/08 10:16 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline OP
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It's not THAT special...most new A-cats come with the system...surely someone state-side has had some experience retrofitting the system to an older mast.


Jake Kohl
Re: Adjustable Diamonds [Re: Jake] #146677
06/25/08 10:28 AM
06/25/08 10:28 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 623
Gulf Coast
tami Offline
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http://www.fiberfoam.net/Default.aspx?tabid=94

Look for part A44, it's a whole kit to do the thing

Attached Files
Last edited by tami; 06/25/08 10:41 AM.
Re: Adjustable Diamonds [Re: tami] #146678
06/25/08 10:55 AM
06/25/08 10:55 AM
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 549
Knokke-Heist - Belgium
Gilo Offline
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I know Hans Klok (Catamaranparts.nl) sails with an adjustable wire tension and carbon mast.

Gill


Falcon F16 - BEL666
Boats: TheBoatShop.be
Stories: bladef16.blogspot.com
Re: Adjustable Diamonds [Re: Jake] #146679
06/25/08 11:05 AM
06/25/08 11:05 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline
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Jake

First, try for details here
http://lists.topica.com/lists/usaca

To upgrade, you need to redo your mast base to accomodate the exit sheeves and the cleats for the diamond tensioner.

People also add some positve rotator ears if they want and certainly add a new deck sweeper rotation arm.

This is the prefered location for a veloctoek or compass.

You can get carbon plate from Hall spars or the link tami gave.

A cheaper solution is to take fiberglass G10 and vacumn bag carbon layers top and bottom to get the proper thickness, cut and finish to suit.

The hard piece to find or fabricate is the U shaped strap which wraps around the mast and attaches to the diamonds.

Mark


crac.sailregattas.com
Re: Adjustable Diamonds [Re: Mark Schneider] #146680
06/25/08 12:26 PM
06/25/08 12:26 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline OP
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Quote
Jake

First, try for details here
http://lists.topica.com/lists/usaca

To upgrade, you need to redo your mast base to accomodate the exit sheeves and the cleats for the diamond tensioner.

People also add some positve rotator ears if they want and certainly add a new deck sweeper rotation arm.

This is the prefered location for a veloctoek or compass.

You can get carbon plate from Hall spars or the link tami gave.

A cheaper solution is to take fiberglass G10 and vacumn bag carbon layers top and bottom to get the proper thickness, cut and finish to suit.

The hard piece to find or fabricate is the U shaped strap which wraps around the mast and attaches to the diamonds.

Mark


Manufacturing and composites are no problem. I've got two rolls of carbon, a great mechanical vacuum setup, and I work at a machine manufacturing facility with three steel cutting lasers, finishing, cnc, welding, milling, etc...

I guess I should have been more specific...I really want to know how much does the mast need to be reinforced where blocks enter and exit. What to people like or dislike about the system they have?...I probably need to start taking pictures and studying.


Jake Kohl
Re: Adjustable Diamonds [Re: Jake] #146681
06/25/08 01:28 PM
06/25/08 01:28 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 733
Home is where the harness is.....
Will_R Offline
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Home is where the harness is.....
I don't know if this is the same system or not but Bim had a system where the diamonds and the cunningham were attached. Pull the line and the luff and diamonds were tensioned together. Might be an "easy" boat to get to see for an example.

Re: Adjustable Diamonds [Re: Will_R] #146682
06/25/08 11:07 PM
06/25/08 11:07 PM
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 805
Gainesville, FL 32607 USA
dacarls Offline
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Gainesville, FL 32607 USA
I had the Bimm 2000 combi system when new..not precise--not so good. Eventually I turned the s.s. tubing "stirrup" around 180 degrees in front of the mast and used it for the diamond wire tensioner. Worked fine at 10:1 downhaul.

Later I got several aluminum or s.s. stirrups off old aluminum A-cat masts and used them on CF masts. These old designs work just fine, even better with tiny double bullet blocks and small line. But larger triples and quads are a nuisance in small spaces- do not use them.
9 inch long x 2 inch by 1/8 inch thick aluminum plate works fine- 2 pieces bent into a shallow Z, lightened by drilled holes. None of mine ever broke.... except the first one when I went out in a blow, when two very old, poorly-fastened rivets in the downhaul DID come off the aluminum mast..... Twang-CRUNCH... Splash.


Dacarls:
A-class USA 196, USA 21, H18, H16
"Nothing that's any good works by itself. You got to make the damn thing work"- Thomas Edison
Re: Adjustable Diamonds [Re: Jake] #146683
06/26/08 07:27 AM
06/26/08 07:27 AM
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 1,226
Atlanta
bvining Offline
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Jake,
Most of the systems I've seen are home made, you should be able to do it easily. I'll look for pictures.

You might want to consider having a system that adjusts each side individually.

Bill

Attached Files
149467-006.jpg (84 downloads)
Re: Adjustable Diamonds [Re: bvining] #146684
06/26/08 07:34 AM
06/26/08 07:34 AM
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 1,226
Atlanta
bvining Offline
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more pics

Attached Files
149470-DSC00546.JPG (90 downloads)
Re: Adjustable Diamonds [Re: bvining] #146685
06/26/08 07:40 AM
06/26/08 07:40 AM
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 1,226
Atlanta
bvining Offline
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another view

Attached Files
149471-DSC00557.JPG (67 downloads)
Re: Adjustable Diamonds [Re: bvining] #146686
06/26/08 07:41 AM
06/26/08 07:41 AM
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 887
Crofton, MD
Chris9 Offline
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Crofton, MD
Bill,

What do the lines that go in the mast do?


Chris Allen
Nacra 20 Gertie
www.wrcra.org
Re: Adjustable Diamonds [Re: bvining] #146687
06/26/08 07:45 AM
06/26/08 07:45 AM
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 1,226
Atlanta
bvining Offline
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So part of your question is do you like them, do you use them. I dont, I have fixed diamonds that I rarely touch.

If I was going to do it, I would make each side adjust independantly, give you more flexibility in the adjustment.

I dont think you need to overly reinforce the mast, the point that the lever arm goes into the mast might need some reinforcement, but I'm not sure. The blocks need to be wire line blocks, not regular exit blocks.

All the attached pictures obviously have internal downhaul and diamond tension setups, not sure the purchase or how you fit all those blocks in the mast.

Bill

Re: Adjustable Diamonds [Re: dacarls] #146688
06/26/08 07:47 AM
06/26/08 07:47 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline OP
Carpal Tunnel
Jake  Offline OP
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Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Quote
I had the Bimm 2000 combi system when new..not precise--not so good. Eventually I turned the s.s. tubing "stirrup" around 180 degrees in front of the mast and used it for the diamond wire tensioner. Worked fine at 10:1 downhaul.

Later I got several aluminum or s.s. stirrups off old aluminum A-cat masts and used them on CF masts. These old designs work just fine, even better with tiny double bullet blocks and small line. But larger triples and quads are a nuisance in small spaces- do not use them.
9 inch long x 2 inch by 1/8 inch thick aluminum plate works fine- 2 pieces bent into a shallow Z, lightened by drilled holes. None of mine ever broke.... except the first one when I went out in a blow, when two very old, poorly-fastened rivets in the downhaul DID come off the aluminum mast..... Twang-CRUNCH... Splash.


Yeah, I'm not so sure I want everything combined - rig tuning isn't that simple!

I saw one setup with a single line coming from the yoke into the base of the mast with a bunch of internal purchase - very clean but the innards were a bit mysterious. I'm most uneasy about how to attach things to the carbon mast and what kind of loading the attachment points can handle. Most fittings are riveted to the mast (and it's 7 years old) so I guess that's acceptable. 10:1 sounds like a lot of purchase if you had a lever-arm on the diamonds - did that include the leverage of the arm?


Jake Kohl
Re: Adjustable Diamonds [Re: Chris9] #146689
06/26/08 07:50 AM
06/26/08 07:50 AM
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 1,226
Atlanta
bvining Offline
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Quote
What do the lines that go in the mast do?


One set of exit blocks is for internal downhaul, probably 8 to 1 , the other set is for internal diamond tension setup, probably also 8 to 1 or more. These systems are set up so that you can pull on either line to adjust the tension, so depending on your tack, you can adjust both the downhaul and the diamond from the wire.

I just have one set of blocks for downhaul in my mast, so I only have one exit block on either side and one set of cleats. Check out the picture, the blue line goes into the mast and through an 8 to 1 block set up. The top of the 8 to 1 is tied off to a bolt that runs through the mast. The bottom of the 8 to 1 is ties to the yellow line which comes out the exit block and goes around the blocks in on the sail to make a 16 to 1 downhaul.

Attached Files
149475-DSC00769.JPG (54 downloads)
Re: Adjustable Diamonds [Re: Jake] #146690
06/26/08 07:58 AM
06/26/08 07:58 AM
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 1,226
Atlanta
bvining Offline
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Quote
the innards were a bit mysterious. I'm most uneasy about how to attach things to the carbon mast and what kind of loading the attachment points can handle


Its really not that complicated. PM me and we can talk on the phone. I had the same questions when I set up my mast and someone talked me through it.

Re: Adjustable Diamonds [Re: bvining] #146691
06/26/08 08:10 AM
06/26/08 08:10 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline OP
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those pictures are great Bill - PM coming.


Jake Kohl
Re: Adjustable Diamonds [Re: Jake] #146692
06/26/08 09:17 AM
06/26/08 09:17 AM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 163
Atlanta
GeoffS Offline
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Atlanta
Quote
It has an applied composites mast (which I'm guessing is now FibreFoam) and the diamond wires go through the bottom mast plate to individual nuts on the underside...it's a real PIA to adjust tension.


I had a similar Applied Comp mast on a Boyer 4. I had the diamonds cut short and fitted with a toggle/swage turnbuckle at the bottom. With the toggle removed, the "T" that formerly held the toggle slides through the hole in the mast base. It's not adjustable from the wire, but is easier to adjust than the stock system, quick to implement, and cheap.

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