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Building a better mousetrap /rating system #14672
12/27/02 04:11 PM
12/27/02 04:11 PM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 800
MI
sail6000 Offline OP
old hand
sail6000  Offline OP
old hand

Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 800
MI
Rating System

Like many others I believe the ideal sailing class may be one that only limits sail area, -nothing else .It would produce fascinating interesting very efficient sailing craft.

The ideal racing on catamarans occurs on One Design Classes which we have numerous brands of in N A.
The largest percentage over the last quarter century have been H- sailors and P brand catamaran sailors in N A . -Development Classes like the A-Class that allow numerous brand types to race together, and Formula Type Classes of very similar design and sail plan type are also in this ideal O D but more inclusive requiring boats to rate in design feature to maximum allowed per rules of each.


The ideal rating tool in our near future will be an extensive CAD computer design program that can account for all design features of any comparative design in great detail, beyond current simplified abbreviated rating formulas used. The basic measurements of Hull, -section girth, -shape type, board rudder area type, -mast type-weight ;girth, - rigging type ;weights of each, ;sail area, -spin area ;snuffer type, -hardware types, -weights of sails hulls hardware complete elements of each design. All design factors could be defined and analyzed in direct comparison by all submitting detailed Cad drawings of each that would allow this tedious process to occur with great accuracy BUT WITH GREAT TIME AND EXPENCE,. BUT, even this will not rate boats if the intent is to handicap. Infinite variables of human capabilities, -sea state, -wind speeds, -current, -wind direction, the variety of design types and features, and unknown or new development in design make this an impossible task.

Preface to rating discussion first the true intent of racing catamarans, -its ideals and goals must be understood and defined. Is the intent of ratings to determine the best type of boat in racing conditions of a particular set of measurements and specifications, the basics being Length Beam Weight and Sail area.
We have the ideal one design; development and Formula group racing for these ideal forms of racing, -Should a rating system at its base be an extension of this ideal form.---
Or is the intent of rating catamarans one of attempting to find a system or rating formula that allows a variety of different design types ;good or bad, --to win races. If so then artificial averages and a means of limiting or handicapping must be devised penalizing some faster design, -rewarding slower ones with favoritism in some form as a compensating factor. ;If it is this then it would ideally only be used or applied when good class type racing was not available when using either a measurement design rating or Yardstick type rating system based on averaging times being inherently inferior. Both types of rating systems in use both average times and measurement design in combination with differing base and using the other method secondarily to it to accomplish its rating objectives.
Some way or means is required in measurement to classify boat types as a beginning definition basic to our understanding. Measurement design based rating from a design theory perspective only would still have numerous flaws within rating boats and problems to resolve if the intent is to handicap and limit all boats in the concept of equalizing speed potential through handicap time allowances. Dependent on ones intent of rating boats cognoscent of the inherent flaws and faults in averaging boats performance relative to one another in their diverse design forms, along with the problems of very different performance characteristics in the infinite variety of-sea and weather patterns and intended uses and specifications per designer THIS BECOMES AN IMPOSSIBLE TASK, to accomplish fair sailing for all-Some will benefit greatly, many will be unduly penalized comparatively using average times or by limiting and penalizing good design
A rating system, -any system is not the know all be all or should attempt to be.
.
There are exceptions and innovation to design types that still could not be rated comparatively, solid -wing sails, -and foiler types being two notable exceptions that require a separate category being outside the scope of standard design practice. Thus some of the folly of rating boats fairly. Rating design needs to be very careful not to define it to an extent that limits design or to inadvertently confine it to limits of standard current thinking, -or to limits of beating a rating equation with design that may produce undesirable or unsafe features. One main problem historically with measurement design based rating or formula rating such as past Americas Cup 12 Meter rule. Designers eventually find ways to outsmart a handicap or limits within a design based rule not its intent at all. -Remember keel winglets?
To avoid such scenarios a measurement design based rating would need to be as simple and basic as possible.
We can not measure or account for the art of design by measurement and just defining and applying standard accepted engineering practice. How efficient or how well all aspects of any design work together, -how integral they are to produce a boat that sails and handles efficiently can not always be defined even within a computer program capable of tens of thousands or evan millions of calculation. Some C-Class cat design go through this type of design process and of course Americas Cup Yachts with their huge multimillion dollar budgets go through this type of design trial and error process with CAD systems -

New yet to be understood design innovation is unknown, -ratings should not unintentionally limit design innovation with undue complex assumption based on current standard practice. The current practice of defining design and measurements of hull sail area length etc. and assigning an efficiency or penalizing those over a certain current limit in luff length or sail area or hull overhang or board type set up an artificial means and intent in design to manipulate the means of measurement practice or design feature itself as opposed to improving safety efficiency of design itself .The human skill factor is always an unknown quantity also. Skill level of each and the development of sailing techniques from trial and error in tuning and racing teach design over time.
One good example is some that use C F masts downwind with a chute downhauling the mainsail to extreme and allowing the flat top portion of mast to absorb gusts by bending more to leeward with each one. A pumping speed effect is the result at some windspeeds though can lead to a broken mast in others.
This technique was never anticipated by the original designers or could be factored into a rating equation.
Many other racing techniques and boat tuning systems are used and develop in each class over time improving boat performance.
. These along with the ever-changing wave shape size patterns, -current; -wind direction and various strength change combinations of design features cause their measured effectiveness to be an average estimate only that changes with each weather pattern. Assuming a taller mast and more sail area is faster is not true in above 15-mph winds between similar design. A wind speed factor is a good solution, but again adding even more complexity and variable numbers of each design rating.
Problems with design based rating lead some to believe a yardstick type rating system is the ideal, both types use combinations of the other but place its basis in one or the other method. . So, - what is the intent of rating catamaran types. Is it to establish ever changing current average finish times of skippers of very different ability on each cat design type in class compared to one another of those currently sailing that type? What does this really accomplish.
It is in effect a handicap based on times of skippers in classes; the unverifiable false assumption is this somehow all averages out. We all realize top sailors are in the most current active classes. If handicapping human capability is the goal then set up a system to handicap individuals.Many good individual handicap rating systems are available and in use in local club settings correctly being applied .
Do not confuse or falsely assume a system that averages times in classes will produce anything other than this average current time of those skippers in class. P rating produces a look at average times of classes but unverified as to how well sailed comparative to true speed potential.An ideal system for a club setting and consistant known human factors, but not applied beyond this original scope of use, again breaking down in larger use outside a small club or group .
We can choose to use measurement design rating as a basis instead, -in doing so obtain a more accurate versatile base rating system that potentially allows us all a better understanding of design, this seems a much more constructive and beneficial roll for a rating system and for all those involved in the sport.

The basic box rule often used of Length ;Weight. ;Beam, ----Sail Area each forming one side of the box is the basis for most development classes and where most design definition begins for catamarans .
A key to race organization and structure is to encourage boat designs to race in similar class groups, -Size;length category brand type -spin non-spin ;types in separate starts.

Eliminating much of the measurement definition based on current practice on variation of design in limited scope and instead using basic box measurements as a rating basis would be a greatly simplified formula that would encourage better pure design in each category realizing all rating systems have imperfection in averaging either human performance or design performance features. A rating system should not attempt to define and regulate all design to be equal in all variables of skippers abilities or sea/and wind infinite conditions encountered, -it is an impossible task to be fair to all. Some type will be favored over others dependent on who currently writes the handicap rules.
Those writing rating rules have to accept that some design types will favor certain conditions and excel in them, -light air flyers or other types in high wind and seas. The best designs will take care of their owners in all conditions and can be determined by the designer of each and the marketplace to refuse or eliminate poor design. A simple design based rating system can/;MAY, -reward safer seaworthy design in catamarans by constructing the basic calculation to favor less sail area which shapes faster high wind speed safer more easily handled boat design. This is the reason for catamaran /multihull development mainly over the last 50 years .Better safer faster sailing craft .
If we accept the reality of inherent flaw in averaging and rating boats. A given ,then rather than a bias of average times rewarding seldom sailed older boats or poorly sailed and designed boats per current rating, would not this very simple design rating be more beneficial guiding us towards better safer faster craft.
ISAF for small cats and Texel measurement design based rating are similar.
Current Texel design uses this calc and formula
TR rating = 100 / (0.99 * RL 0.3 * RSA 0.4/ RW 0.3)
RL IS rated length RSA is rated sail area RW is rated weight -
Link http://www.texelrating.knwv.nl/

Each uses a set of defined set procedure of measurements with efficiency limitations based on these measurements. Those design features beyond set limits are penalized or given a favorable reduction in calc. method. This may be greatly simplified with very similar end results; sail area would be the area plus mast as listed in basic specs per most classes. Length;just hull length Max as listed per class. Weight would be just boat weight as crew weight could be determined as a constant from one or two person boats, -again let designers decide their ideal average target and accept this without attempting to limit or rate efficiency or inadvertently limit or shape design or reward poor or slower design features. Lets not fall into the same historic dead end of shaping boats to beat a rating rule, MEASUREMENT PROCEEDURE OR LIMITS BASED ON CURRENT THOUGHT, -or the inequities of a yardstick average time based rating system
Allow race results to tell us what type of boat is truly the most efficient and best with a simple measurement design rating in its purest simplest form which will reflect actual race results in category. . This philosophy is basically an extension of existing development -O D or Formula Class type racing and very integral with it. This rating would give us the best type or most efficient type comparatively in L-B- W ;S A category and could be applied to all modern boat classes of similar non spin or spin types ideal for buoys or distance racing in any conditions or design form.Again allow the designers and realities of functional design in ocean -water environment weather conditions to shape design without the need for a rating system to attempt it also.

The need for a Handicap Class that then compares older boat designs and allows them a handicap allowance is still required for those not wishing to upgrade or modernize their boat.or race in class.;Most all boat classes and design go through periodic changes and updates or they become dead boat classes. Tornados and A Class cats being the best examples of Classes that have long established existence due to updating and allowing development.
Those that wish to keep older class design as is without updating periodically or seldom sailed or unique brand types in limited number need this handicap rating class to race comparatively usually having heavier boat weight, -older sail plans, -heavier masts and rigging, -board and rudder types, -and hull configurations.Many new designs will be built to Formula or existing class structure.
The ideal solution is to apply an added efficiency allowance that factors in these older design features for those not wishing to update or modify.
The ideal way may be to add an average time based yardstick system as an added factor to the base box formula when needed. The ideal way to obtain handicap times would be a speed trials week with top crews on various points of sail in a variety of wind speeds and sea states. After numerous runs switching crews on each a reliable average speed could be determined, recorded and compared in each. This not being practical the current P-rating numbers could be applied as a percentage of the total. Again this only need apply to a handicap class.
If an event organizer wishes to add a total overall handicap along with class trophies
This simple pure design based rating would provide ready base numbers to begin, a consistent accurate effective simple means of rating modification like spin or main sizes. Ideal for distance racing of similar rigged catamarans. Any could easily calculate the base rating, yet to be determined.

Establishing a simple pure base rating formula based on L- B- W and S A will require some adjustment and a trial and error process in percentages of each to reflect the reality of design performance potential and may not be linear due to the law of mechanical similitude as boats scale upward in size and sail plan relative to one another.

These are concepts for groundwork for the ideal combination rating system, where the existing cat rating systems seem to be directed in a roundabout way. One adding modification factors based in design measurement and weight factors and windspeed factors and categorizing older design and spin;non spin category, and constant change in rating numbers with different times recorded based on current skippers ability in class that year etc. etc. The other adding limitations within measurement procedure, introducing plus or minus rating added calc factors and still adjusting per race results.
Hope some will join in the attempt to formulate this simple pure rating base with these outlined concepts in mind as a much more beneficial roll in the sport. Current problems with this ever changing more complex P-rating seem unacceptable, current design based rating must avoid the temptation to control and limit design in its limited measurement procedure and calc. Again no rating system can calculate or average out this infinite variety of design and physical wind seas combinations along with varied human capability. Would really enjoy others input on this proposed rating formula.
This along with consistent race organizational practice and structure to place priority on racing in similar class groups as most catamaran sailors prefer as a truer test of sailing skills will benefit the sport and catamaran development {immeasurably}.

Happy New Year -03


-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: Building a better mousetrap /rating system [Re: sail6000] #14673
12/28/02 02:52 PM
12/28/02 02:52 PM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 800
MI
sail6000 Offline OP
old hand
sail6000  Offline OP
old hand

Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 800
MI

Most catsailors in N A are oriented towards class racing .

This reality is what we build on to promote the sport of catamaran racing .
A simple box base rating system as outlined will compliment class type racing .

We are beginning to assimilate and integrate previously seperated brand groups into Formula Class racing similar to A Class type racing allowing numerous brand types of catamaran to race equally together. A much better way to race catamarans that produce brilliant beautifull design as a result of great competitive racing classes.

There are some very brilliant catsailors, hope the intent and efforts to help form an improved rating system is understood , my sincere appologies for being so critical of P-Rating , no disrespect is intended towards those who invest so much time to attempt to correct it . Inteligent people can disagree and have throughout sailing history on rating systems .

Will work on a box base Formula for rating , hope more brilliant catsailors which there are many of out there that sail cats will see the need for this and get involved , It is a great sport and worth the time .

Maybe a seperate Forum for rating may be a good idea .
Would really like race results and actual times posted .
Historical list of classes -development ,-and rating systems .
Input from other systems approaches.

Carl

Re: Building a better /rating system [Re: sail6000] #14674
12/29/02 01:40 PM
12/29/02 01:40 PM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 800
MI
sail6000 Offline OP
old hand
sail6000  Offline OP
old hand

Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 800
MI

Seeking other current thinking ,-opinion ,-sources and info that may be available on rating systems .

repeating a little sorry ,-but taking some time over the holidays to work on this .-thanks


On speed theory and comparing performance of catamaran design --
Is there a generally accepted formula in design that compares all small cat design based on L B W and S A
Length Beam Weight and Sail Area

Numerous partial comparisons are made ,-weight to sail area ratios ,-stability and righting moment with sail area . etc.

this is listed on the Texel site
There are 20 elements of speed, according to Olin Stephens (1972).


length
sailarea
displacement
prism. coeff.
asp. ratio rig
ratio main/jib . .
beam
wetted surface
center of effort
draught
ballast
combined 1 - 12
fulness ends
weight distribution
freeboard
windage rig
motor
material
course stabil.
steering stabil

6.

There are 7 elements of speed which have nothing to do with the design.

helmsman
crew
organization
condition of sails
condition of bottom
tactics / strategy
luck
7.

Follow the "KISS" principle, "keep it simple stupid", for formulas. There are 4 formulas available to approximate the performance. Bruce nrs (1967), IOMR (1968), KSP since 1976, Texel Rating since 1984 Edmund Bruce, pioneer of Amateur Yacht Research Society, died 1973.
IOMR = International Offshore Multihull Rule (California, 1968).
KSP = Kelsall Shuttleworth Performance. (MOCRA formula, around 1978).
TR = Texel Rating by Nico Boon, 1984, slightly modified in 1993.

8.

IOMR, KSP and TR use length, sailarea and weight (displ.) only..

RL = rated length, RSA = rated sailarea, RW = rated weight. (kg.).

General form of these formulas : 100 / (c * RL p * RSA q / RW r).

Bruce (metr.) =2.5209 * RL 0 * RSA 0.5 / RW (1/3 ).
Bruce (imp. ) = 1 * RL 0 * RSA 0.5 / RW (1/3 ).
MOCRA (metr.) = 100 / (2 * RL 0.5 * RSA 0.5 / RW 0.5 ) .
MOCRA (imp. ) = 100 /(0.5 * RL 0.5 * RSA 0.5 / RW 0.5 ).
TR (metr.) = 100 / (0.99 * RL 0.3 * RSA 0.4/ RW 0.3)
TR (imp. ) = 100 / (0.3397* RL 0.3 * RSA 0.4 / RW 0.3).
IOMR (metr.) = 100 / (1 *RL 0.311 * RSA 0.42 / RW 0.318).
IOMR (imp. ) = 100 / (0.3275 * RL 0.311 * RSA 0.42 / RW 0.318).

IOMR here, is a "translation" into a powerformula of the IOMR formulas.

9.

Above Beaufort 5 or 6, stability of a design is the limiting factor for speed. A rating has to be calculated then by using the smaller sailarea making heeling moment = righting moment. No other formula required..
In very light winds use TR (metr.) with c = 0.89 and RSA ^ 0.5..
(rev.7/96).

end Texel -info

A different approach to rating catamaran design in concept is to have a base equation that does not attempt to handicap design ,--but only compare it to scale of design variation of
L B SA and W .
This would provide information on the most effecient design type in each size for racing , results varying with race conditions and teams abilities as always.
For handicap racing an efficiency factor could be added to this base equation .
This may be based on improved yardstick system numbers ,Again as a percentage of this base rating applied to handicap racing only.
The base rating would provide a beginning number for new design . Be readily available to calculate modification of sail or spin sizes .Could be applied accurately to distance racing w spin non spin classes.

Ideas -concepts added -
thanks
Carl


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