BIMARE is due to launch by the end of September 2008 a new really affordable A class cat.
The idea behind this move is that the current (very high) quotations of A class catamarans are preventing a large majority of sailors from having the pleasure of steering recreationally and occasionally racing one of the most captivating sailing vessel on the market.
With the new V1 “Basic” (a punctual translation from the Italian word Base) BIMARE wants to do the same Rohan Vehal did recently launching the Bladerider FX8, the cheap version of the famous Bladerider X8 flying Moth:
offer a product capable to closely match the speed of a full specs racing A class at a much lower price.
It goes without saying that the new V1 Basic model is fully compliant with the A class rules and then can be raced competitively at least al local and regional level.
Actually the main difference with the V1 XJ model will be the weight:
the hulls will be an extremely strong fibreglass construction and the beams will be large (near 100 mm) aluminium tubes (the front one strikerless). All the other main components (mast, main, and foils) will be exactly the same for an expected ready to sail weight of 86-87 Kg.
At under EUR 12,000 this boat is sensational value for money.

Interesting development...what will it weigh?

I still think the current lot of A-cats are priced at a premium compared to the materials that go in them (or lack thereof). I also think you can still build a boat at minimum weight, using carbon or kevlar, with aluminum beams, and concentrate carefully on your manufacturing process (and location) to create a significant price drop.

I was pretty sure that though the Blade was being manufactured in a cost reduced manner, that it was NOT done so not through by reducing quality of materials. The price reduction was achieved, instead, through cost effective labor in China and making the gamble on investing in large(r) scale production thereby realizing economies of scale and hoping that the demand would follow (which it did).

My Boyer MkIV with Kevlar hulls and aluminum beams has proven to be very competitive locally against an A2 and and an XJ. It's 8 years old and weighs 6 lbs over minimum weight...I think weight is going to play a large factor in the sales success of any a-cat whether it is a real performance difference or a perceptual difference.

Also, to us mere mortals, I really don't get the whole strikerless beam thing...I can see that it might make a slight feel difference when straddling chop but for 90% of the sailing I do, I've never had it touch the water. Why go to the extra expense and weight of a strikerless front beam if you're trying to get cost and weight out of a platform? The performance difference (and perceptual difference) is negligible in my opinion.

Two things

"Very afforable", without any tax and shipping, comes up to $19K USD.

Does this boat have a carbon mast? From a lake sailors perspective, if a boat should ever go turtle, a carbon mast can easily be broken, and main destroyed, if stuck in the mud.

I like the concept, a more affordable A Class. What about a superwing mast? How much more weight would that add? Are we then back to 91kg(200 lbs)? Is/was this the configuration of what the Portsmouth table calls A-C 2 ? I'd like to have an A for primarily recreational purpose.

More importantly, what do you hold onto after you right the boat?

Not the dolphin striker if it is a Marstrom - they are a skinny carbon fiber strut designed to be in tension, not side loaded or twisted. I grab the front cross beam as it rights and climb on board.

I don't think the loss of the dolphin striker makes it significantly harder to right or remount an A-Cat. Now as for the performance advantage/disadvantage - given new boats generally are down around min weight, strikerless may have an edge in reduced drag.


Chris.

The first post said 78-79kg. 79kg = 174 lb

I'm a victim of my speed reading again...I see now that this post says 86 which is about 200lb. I really hate to be a nay-sayer, but I'm going to be much more inclined to buy an 8 year old boat for $8k that is at or very near the minimum weight of 75kg (165lbs) than a new boat at $19k and is closer to 200 lbs.

It may be a success in it's own class but I don't see it being a success as an a-cat...people just won't buy it (not with an American mentality anyway).

That said, if you did actually follow the model set by Rohan Vehal and build an a-cat with some minor material compromises but hedging on larger scale production and reduced cost, I think you would sell like hotcakes.

When I get some time, I'll make another post about a-cat prices and the breakdown.

As opposed to the 75 kg class minimum. So not a great deal of difference. Might actually be the same since it is stating that the sail is included in the wieght. I wonder what the core is for the new Bimare. I am assuming glass, foam glass.

From Hall Spars, you can buy 75% of everything you need to build an a-cat.

Complete mast (assuming with spreaders) $2,780
Carbon Main beam (strikerless) $873
Carbon Rear Beam $512
Fredrickson mainsheet system $269

We're at $4,434. Let's also assume that Ben is going to give me a 10 to 15% OEM discount..at 10% we're at $3991. Let's also say we're going to take a little cost out and go with aluminum beams with strikers; I'm roughly figuring we can drop to about $600-700 (call it $650)for both beams instead of $1385...take off $735 and we're now at $3,256 but still need and still need sails, line, rigging, hull hardware, and trampoline.

Hulls need carbon. I'm not certain about the laminate schedule, but lets say we're using 2 outer layers and 1 inner layer of 5.7oz carbon (standard grade, nothing exotic). It's roughly $45 / yard in a 50inch width (off the street price). The boat is 18' long / so that's 6 yards per hull half for one layer. Three layers is 18 yards per half and there are four hull halves. That's $3240 in carbon...but there's a lot of unused waste and for a 50" width, you might actually be able to get two hull halves out of one width...let's say worst case scenario and with a little bit of a wholesale discount, let's say $2400 in carbon for the hulls. Gelcoat - $80. Core material, $120 for 1/4" end grain balsa. Vacuum bag disposable materials - probably around $150-200 for the hull halves. $2800 for hulls.

We're now at $6056 and need rigging, trampoline, sail, and line. Trampoline (it's been a while since I bought a trampoline) - $350? Rigging, trapeze $100 (synthetic line), dogbones, $30, forestays/sidestays roughly $45 each = $180...call it $200. Sail, $1200. That's another $1880 for a total of $7936. Still need a mast base and pivot hardware...but materials should be under $8500 said and done.

With the lack of materials and lack of hardware (jib, spinnaker, double traps), I'm still a little surprised at the $20k price tag carried by most a-cats when you can buy an F18 that weighs more than twice as much for $14.5k.

That said, I've never built a 'real' people-sized boat before so please take my comments with a grain of salt.

Now, labor...there's obviously going to be a lot there, and we've not even begun to discuss tooling or foils.

If the boat is not close to minimum weight... How can it be called an A class?

My Dart 18 sailed without the jib would measure in as an A class... All i need to do is pay the money for the measurement cert and I can sell my boat as an A class??? BS!

The class has an interest in protecting it's name and the value of the boats in the class and not having other's try to get a free ride on it's success and confuse the public in the process.

This is what Hobie did with the Hobie 18.... then the Hobie 18 magnum, then the Hobie 18 SX. Since the builder controlled the class at the time they could get away with it. But, it was not good for the racing class.

All this would do is force the class to put in a max weight rule to stop the BS.

Simple question.... What is the value of a cat rigged 200 lb 18 foot catamaran.

Jake,

What about dagger boards and rudders, as well as cross bar and hot stick?

I think you also need to add diamonds to the mast (I'm not sure it comes with spreaders either) - this is typically rod rigging.

And then you want to make a few bucks out of it at the end of the day...

I am not convinced the market is big enough to drive the costs down significantly, but it would be great to be proven wrong.

Chris

Jake,

Following Worlds last year I set about (very seriously) to attempt to build an "affordable" A-cat for production based on Cogan's latest design. After a LOT of noodling, pulling of hair, and gnashing of teeth I realized my design goals of $15k were simply not reasonable. I won't pick apart your numbers completely, but I will say that your hull numbers are a fraction of reality due to the extremely labor intensive process to get these hulls to come in at weight and still have the level of quality a buyer has a right to expect. We are still moving forward with our production plans as we do believe we have a very competitive product that still comes in at a slightly lower price point than the Euro's or Ozzies. I think your thoughts regarding cost reduction combined with some of the Bimare direction ultimately may result in some cost reduction but as Chris points out one of the big problems in this class (especially for a US based builder) are volumes....

In any event, we are moving forward with what we have been able to put together for now with a very serious eye towards trying to reduce costs in future builds assuming we can be successful getting off the ground. To that end we are very iunterested in hearing from sailors who are serious about wanting to get into the class about what sacrifices would be acceptable to get he price down. I will say that I DO NOT believe a 200lb A-cat is reasonable. I DO wonder though if a 175-180 pound boat might be, given the right price point. I think that is what Bimare is attempting.

We just got our web site up (still a work in progress), and are planning on putting out more of a splash to announce our new "EVO" A-class, but I guess now is as good a time as any to spill the beans....check us out at:

www.BlueStreakBoatWerks.com

OK, I'll admit that was a really rough scratch pad - and I did point out that I hadn't included labor or foils. So what is the difference in labor and materials between an a-cat and, for instance, an F18.

The SambA-Cat was also offered in a lower cost glass version for some time, but there's nothing about it in the website now, so I guess nobody bought it (?)
Lets see how Bimare does.

Note I wasn't trying to pick on your numbers Jake...but regarding the diff between A & F-18, I couldn't say for certain as I have not run numbers on an F-18 (need to be successful with teh A's first...baby steps for the new business!!) I do know that the skill level to get a proper set of full carbon (or Kevlar) lightweight hulls versus a heavy glass boat like an F-18 is not insignificant. It also takes more time. For example we are triple bagging to get proper laminate adhesion throughout whereas (I believe) most F-18s are completesly layed up and bagged once. We also weigh out "exactly" the correct ammount of resin when wetting out also, so the skill level in making that exact ammount work as opposed to over wetting and pressing out the excess is much higher.

Interesting - I wondered if bagging may have to be done in multiple steps to prevent bleed through of the core or glass pattern.

I'd be happy to discuss the why's (at least in our case) in another thread, or privately...it's starting to look like I am trying to hi-jack this thread which was not my intent. My apologies to Catfan!

JL

Hi Luiz,

it is nothing new, that Bimare offers two A-cat, a cost efficient version and the normal one. Hence if they continue, I think the business case is working.

Jake,

if the boat is already below minimum weight and carries correction weights, there is a good reason to switch to strikerless front beams: manufacturing costs cut by not need to drill holes and screw things in, add a piece of steel and finally correction weight. Just a plain tube. With some good marketing you sell this as a brand-new technology for the same or higher price. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Cheers,

Klaus

One of the problems with the Samba A-Cat site was that they took there graphics directly from the Balance A-Cat site. Though they were building their own, it was someone elses design, or at least their information that Samba used. The balance is an Italian builder I believe.