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Construction plans for social backyard cat projekt #148051
07/04/08 04:43 AM
07/04/08 04:43 AM
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luckystrike118 Offline OP
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Construction plans for a Sports Catamaran

A friendly hello to everybody. We are searching construction plans and license for a sports-cat of 15 to 20 feet length, for our project with social discriminated youths. Construction method should be suitable for tortured plywood and / or grp / foam sandwich. We are thinking of Tornado, Taipan or something similar. Perhaps somebody has some plans and wants to donate them to our social project in northern Germany.

Please help us. Our Aim is , to work and sail together with youths of different nationalities to fight against racism, for understanding and to get them off the streets.
We are a small and private initiative, therefore we can not pay for building licences. For further information, please contact Michael Fedisch at: michel.fe@lycos.de


hullaballo
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Re: Construction plans for social backyard cat pro [Re: luckystrike118] #148052
07/04/08 05:27 AM
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phill Offline

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Michel,
Given the cost of plans is such a small percentage of the cost of building the boat, do you have the funds to complete the craft?
Your objectives are worthy of assistance but only if you have done your homework and have what is needed to ensure what you start can be finished.
If you are looking for either Taipan or Tornado and do not want to pay for plans I suggest you contact Kevin Cook. He has previously offered Tornado plans to people but they do have to pay for copying and postage. He has them and will share them but it is unreasonable that it cost him money
when he is helping someone else.
He is quite busy now with his new tri that he designed and built so he may not have the time. Only way to find out is to PM him and ask.

Good luck.
Hope it works OK.

Regards,
Phill


I know that the voices in my head aint real,
but they have some pretty good ideas.
There is no such thing as a quick fix and I've never had free lunch!

Re: Construction plans for social backyard cat pro [Re: phill] #148053
07/04/08 07:07 AM
07/04/08 07:07 AM
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Rolf_Nilsen Offline

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Tornado plans can be found at: http://www.thebeachcats.com/modules.php?...nload&cid=6

Some more Tornado history I just found: http://www.instructables.com/id/SOSD1ICF3SYTM0O/

If you do build a Tornado from these plans, you must pay the building fee to the ITA (international Tornado Assoc), which again will reimburse Rodney March. Today the second hand value of a ply Tornado is so low that I would seriously consider some other and more common design like the Blade, Mosquito or Taipan 4.9. OR, if you think a bit ahead, one of the F12 designs. Check the Formula 12 forum for more about the F12 designs.

Remember that the hulls are cheap to build. Foils, trampoline, ruddersystem, mast, sails, lines, blocks etc. is more than the hulls if homebuilding.

Re: Construction plans for social backyard cat projekt [Re: luckystrike118] #148054
07/04/08 07:52 AM
07/04/08 07:52 AM
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Wouter Offline
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I would strongly advice you look at F12 building plans.

It is just the best entry into building your own cat and one can always go for more involved building of say a F16 or Tornado.

Wouter


Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: Construction plans for social backyard cat projekt [Re: Wouter] #148055
07/04/08 08:15 AM
07/04/08 08:15 AM
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luckystrike118 Offline OP
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Dear Phill,

is the Tornado plan open for everybody or still protected by the copyright?

I gave not enough information in this thread. Yes we are solid and our initative goes into the third round this year. After building four Optimist-Dinghies in the first year and two Thumb 15 in the second, we are going for hot cats now.

Until now, we never had problems to finish our projekts. Our Idea is not to raise money and blow it into the air, nor to sit on the desk working out a big PR Event with every social constitution available and every maritime company.

But we are asking everybody to help a little with a minimum of cost and effort. So we get marine plywood with errors, that can`t be sold anymore and this is shipped together with a delivery for a local boatbuilder. No extra costs for anybody! Lumber from a local sawmill, outdated/ overlayed epoxy and paint, glass from a manufacturer for windpowermills. Sails, either not delivered sails (and with a big logo) from a sailmaker or older trainingsails from professionals, same thing with masts and booms. Hardware and ropes out of the sparepart boxes from a hundred sailors around us.

We dont make expensive high tech projekts, no dealing with sponsors, no big PR Events where everybody who is involved has to go a presentation. No buying expensive things from other peoples money. Our total cashflow was around 200 € for both two years.

Our results are quite fair. We come up with real boats, in a quality of a good used boat two or three years old. The initiative is powered by a team of 4 boatbuilders, spending two evenings every second week in the winter. These boats are built by a group of 10 to 12 youths in their leisure time and then sailed in the following summer. A local yacht club is looking after the youths and boats.
Until now, 11 out of 26 youths from 5 different countries made the total trip and learned to sail, 7 became a sailingclub member and made their sailing licence. Even two of them began a apprenticeship as a boatbuilder. This is better than hanging in the streets, isn`t it?

So, if you have a unused plan of a catamaran (perhaps a blade, that would be a dream) and a licence to build one boat, would you offer one or two hours and make a copy, cut it into A4 Paper sheets, scan it into a PDF and email it to me? Finally, would you send one E-Mail to your designer and tell him that you gave the plans and permission to us, so that we are on the right side of the law.

best wishes from the north sea coast, Michael

P.S. I dont know if my english is ok, please tolerate errors


hullaballo
Re: Construction plans for social backyard cat projekt [Re: luckystrike118] #148056
07/04/08 08:46 AM
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Many thanks for your your ideas, but F12 is no option. We will go this year with youths between 14 and 17 and the boat should be able to be raced with a crew of two. So, it must be a big rocket to get the kids into the workshop. Until now, we collected two masts, booms and sails from a tornado (yes, the "want-to-have-carbon-fibre-fever is present in germany too) and we have the promise of a sailmaker to cut it down into what ever the needs are.

Best wishes from the north sea coast, Michael


hullaballo
Re: Construction plans for social backyard cat projekt [Re: luckystrike118] #148057
07/04/08 12:13 PM
07/04/08 12:13 PM
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Wouter Offline
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Phill,

How about the Razor ?

Wouter


Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: Construction plans for social backyard cat projekt [Re: Wouter] #148058
07/04/08 12:53 PM
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Michael,

I have sailed and raced tornados for 8 years. The boats are amazing sailing machines, but expensive to maintain and brutes to handle. Righting is just one issue for a lightweight and young crew. Like I said earlier the resale value for plywood tornados are low, and nobody knows what will happen with this class now that no longer will be an olympic class after august this year.

If you want two up sailing/racing, homebuilding, suited for a lightweight crew etc. it sounds like you want an F16 design. Taipan4.9 (contact Greg Goodall), Mosquito (visit their forum here on catsailor), Blade (contact Phill Brander) and the homebuild Ncik did might be possible leads for you?

Re: Construction plans for social backyard cat projekt [Re: luckystrike118] #148059
07/04/08 06:20 PM
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phill Offline

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Michael,
Rolf is an ex Tornado sailor and would be a better source of information regarding your obligations should you decide to build a Tornado.

Regarding the costing of your project:-
I had not considered that you would waste any money.
I was just asking about the budgetting for essential materials.

Regards,
Phill


I know that the voices in my head aint real,
but they have some pretty good ideas.
There is no such thing as a quick fix and I've never had free lunch!

Hello Rolf and Wouter [Re: phill] #148060
07/07/08 11:36 AM
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Hello Wouter and Rolf.

Thanks for your postings and your interest in our project. I'am in contact with Phill Brander discussing this and that.

I know that a Tornado is a big and expansive machine, but read my second long posting and you will understand that the building budget is not the big problem. I can understand that you can't believe, to build a boat without money, but it's tested for two years now and it works!
Tomorrow I will post parts of the conversation with Phill to show again how our system (philosophy ??)works.

Wouter, could you give me a little bit more information about the razor?

Best regards, Michael


hullaballo
Re: Hello Rolf and Wouter [Re: luckystrike118] #148061
07/07/08 12:39 PM
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Michael, I believe you, I am into the same process myself <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> It demands substantial amounts of time, a large contact network and access to industrial suppliers. Not everybody are able to pull that off, but it sounds like you have the resources needed.
What I was worried about with your Tornado aim was building something with very low resale value and not being competitive with the rest of the fleet. There is a decent size Tornado fleet in Germany, and it is very competitive. If your youths decide to go to a Tornado event, it would not be good if they started out with a handicap due to the boat not being as inherently good as a Marstrøm. He has perfected his boats over the last 30 years so that is the measurement when you build a Tornado. The building tolerances you need to build to if you want to measure in is also quite tight.
I hope I am not being patronizing, I just want to be helpful.

A large boat also demands a larger budget for upkeep. The loads are larger so things tend to wear out or break faster. Then there is the safety aspect of a large boat. Not only the speed, but handling, righting after capsizes, sheeting loads etc. When that has been said, the Tornado is a great boat to sail and race! I have lots of very good memories and experiences from sailing that boat. If you do decide on a Tornado or something similar, you will no doubt have a fantastic time on it.

If/when you build, perhaps you could do a blog on the experience, or let the youth do the blog, as part of the project?


If I might be so forward: You have probably already done so, but I would have checked with whomever I was communicating wether they were OK with having their emails posted on a public forum.

Keep at it, we are all at the egdes of our seats waiting for what you decide to do.

philosophy [Re: luckystrike118] #148062
07/08/08 11:47 PM
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As promised, here are more information about our projekt.

Time schedule: In the moment we are collecting materials, eqiupment and everything we will need for building two boats. In October, when the fall/wintertime in Northern Europe begins, we will move into our workshop provided by the city of Wilhelmshaven. Then our projekt really starts. 8 youths have signed up until now, with 4 who will make their second year. We will finish in may 2009, ready in time for the new sailing season. The biggest local yacht club in Wilhelmshaven will again take care of our (until then survived) youths and teach them how to sail.

Materials: Plywood: For hulls and decks, we use top quality marine rotary cut plywod only. Our official in charge at the plywood factory is looking for damaged boards that can't be sold anymore and normally would be fired in the factories heater. For example: the boards have failures in the top veneer of the plywood, or the forklift missed its target an damaged the edge of the board.

Epoxy: Our Epoxy is donated by the german importer of SP Systems. This is expired (to old) so it can’t be sold anymore. But it works without any problems. Glasrovings have weave failures and fillers with a little dirt in it from decanting and so on. SP Speed Strip Battens with broken edge profiles are our source for Western red cedar. All materials are sent as additional parts inside a delivery for local boatyards, so there are no extra transport charges anyway.

Fitting out philosophy: Yes, everybody who gave hints about this topicis is right! Fitting out a big cat normally is the most expensive part in boatbuilding. For a private racesailor, who is building a boat, fitting it out to the highest race standards to win regattas and championchips, your are right. You count 2500$ for the mast and 2000$ for the mainsail and so on.
But, we have a total different approach, lets say philosophy. Don’t think in $AUS or €. Think in Material, not in Money! Sounds silly? Not for us and here it is how it works: Imagine what happens when a carbon Tornado mast breaks. The insurance company pays for a new mast, or, if there is still warranty on it, Marström sends a new one immediately. What happens to the broken parts? Nothing. They belong to the Owner and he puts it into his garage. Complete with diamonds, halyards and everything. When I was at the Kiel Week this year, I invited the youth trainer of the Kiel Yacht Club for a cup of coffee and told him about our project. He donated me two Tornado masts from the “junkyard” of the Kiel Yacht Club Racing Section. They are broken at the diamond terminal and the repair will not even influence the bending curve of the mast. More to come, he gave me two sets of Tornado Square Top sails, made from hard finished Dacron and good as new with the comment, that nobody will use these sails anymore.
A local sailmaker promised, he will cut the sails down to any size I want until I didn’t change the length of the sails foot. Until the difference is no more than 15 or 20cm from Tornado to “whateveritwillbe” I don’t care and trim it out. And so we go on, Beams will be made out of broken ims masts, spinnaker poles from old surf masts and so on.
In our region we are well known, and when we put a notice at the pin board of the yacht clubs around us, the spare part boxes of hundreds of sailors opens for us. Ropes, turning blocks, shackles, shroudwires and so on. We collect the items at regattas and other events, where everybody goes anyway.

As a private Owner you could go this way too, but you have to pay a little and you must have the patience to catch the right parts, or even get it over ebay. But it works and some funnies accour when you have to take, what you got as a present. For example, our two Thump15 dinghies last year, were painted in copper green, quite a radical colour and awful in the workshop. But on the water it was better.

Ok, that is the way how we work.

With the best wishes from the North Sea Coast, Michael


hullaballo
Rolf [Re: luckystrike118] #148063
07/09/08 12:02 AM
07/09/08 12:02 AM
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Rolf, you are not patronising, you are helpful! I invited myself for a Tornado sail this weekend and therefor I will see a little claerer next week. I´am racing with Keelboats and Dragonflies, but have only limited experience with sportscats. My (really) old A-Cat serves as a afterwork boat only and until now I had no ambition for serios racing training an sport cats.

Best Regards, Michael


hullaballo
Re: Rolf [Re: luckystrike118] #148064
07/09/08 03:57 AM
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Good to hear that your fellow sailors, sailing clubs and suppliers support you! It is a very worthy undertaking.
If you decide to build tornados, please make sure you have perfect understanding of the class rules. There are a lot of details which might make the boats fail their measurements, and then you would not be able to go class racing.


If you come across more broken carbon Tornado masts, I would be in the market <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I have a project or two where carbon Tornado masts would be perfect. Our F-16s will have cut down Tornado alu masts on them, which we got cheap, to save some money. There are lots of ways to save money when building a boat, but you need the same extensive contact network you have.


As I said earlier, it would be very interesting to see a blog with your building process. One more thing for the youth to get involved in and perhaps giving something back to your sponsors? I know I would be interested in seeing what you do and how you do it, and even more interesting in seeing the persons behind the usernames on the forum <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Would perhaps be good and motivational for the builders to see that there is a lot of people around the world who will be interested in their project as well. It is very easy to do a blog on http://www.blogger.com/ or similar free services. Just some thoughts..

Please keep on informing us about the project.

Many Thanks to everybody [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #148065
08/08/08 06:20 AM
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I want to thank everybody who came up with ideas and responses to our social boatbuilding project.

We found our building plans, donated by a german designer and of course, it is a Formula 16.

I promise to be active in this forum in the future as here are great people around.

Everybody who is interested can send me a pm. I will try to be helpful.

Again, many thanks and Good Bye, Michael


hullaballo
Re: Many Thanks to everybody [Re: luckystrike118] #148066
08/08/08 11:44 AM
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Whow, great to hear that it is to be a Formula 16! If there is anything we on the forum can help with, dont hesitate to post!

I still hope you or the youths will consider doing a building blog. That would be great for the class, the builders and everybody else interested in boatbuilding and the Formula 16 class. It is very easy both to use and set up on blogspot.com
It is free as well.

Now you have gone and made us all really curious about who the designer is and what the boat looks like. If you have some overview sketches from the side and the top you can share that would be very interesting. If you want some help uploading them to the forum or hiding details, just let me know.

Good luck with the project!

Re: Many Thanks to everybody [Re: luckystrike118] #148067
08/08/08 06:48 PM
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Perfect !

Quote

I promise to be active in this forum in the future as here are great people around.


And please do updates on your building proces. The F16 forum readers have always been in love with those.

Best of luck

Wouter


Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: Many Thanks to everybody [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #148068
08/11/08 10:44 AM
08/11/08 10:44 AM
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Quote
Now you have gone and made us all really curious about who the designer is and what the boat looks like. If you have some overview sketches from the side and the top you can share that would be very interesting. If you want some help uploading them to the forum or hiding details, just let me know.




Dear Rolf and Wouter,

I'am not gone and will report when the actual building starts at the end of October. We will set a blog here on the forum, or at blogger com. I dont know yet.

The designer doesn't want to be mentioned, as he is new to small cat design. So, you can calm down, there is no big name coming up with a new boat.

But, I saw the sketches and I liked the design, so we will build it. It is a not so radical wavepiercer with a round bottom slightly flattend at the centerline. The first boat will be built in wood/glass sandwich and starting from that we will develop the tortured ply version.

So, thats it for today, Michael


hullaballo
Social Backyard Project at it's end for this winter [Re: luckystrike118] #167220
02/04/09 08:15 AM
02/04/09 08:15 AM
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A friendly Hello to everybody!

Here are sad news from our project. After the build of two Optimist Dinghies in Oktober / November 08 we started with the first cut for the new F16 in mid December 2008. Unfortunally our workshop burned down last week, just after the first hull has been planked.
Must be, that the design is so hot, that it sets on fire by itself. Ok, it's our running gag since the desaster.

The fire began in the car-workshop next door, separated from ours just from a wooden wall and some styropor isolation. Bad luck that on the hot wall was our store for wood and Material, so the fire went over and destroyed the whole workshop.

So, our project is stopped for this year and I see no possibility to have the F16 ready for the season 2009.
My Tornado needs some new laminate and colour and is blocking my own workshop for more than an mounth from now.

But we will start a new attempt next fall or perhaps I do it on my own ... late spring or early summer. Thanks God the beams, masts and sails were not stored in our workshop.

So, thats it for today, have a nice day, Michael





hullaballo
Re: Social Backyard Project at it's end for this winter [Re: luckystrike118] #167247
02/04/09 11:22 AM
02/04/09 11:22 AM
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Really sorry to hear about the fire! Hope your insurance will cover your monetary loss, and that you find something else for the youths to get involved with.

Looking forward to your rebound!


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