I have a 1992 Prindle 19 that has the original rudder assembly. I upgraded the sail plan to 19mx a few years ago and am now considering upgrading to the longer rudders. My question is whether I should replace my rudder castings as well due to 16 years of wear. You can sort of see in the photo that the slot in the casting widens considerably where the spring bolt catches the lock bolt. Is that by design? or from wear? There is considerable fore and aft play in the rudders when they are locked down.
I have owned many Prindles over the years and if the rudders and lock down mech. are adjusted properly they work just fine. What I have noticed in the past is that the springs do lose some strength after years of use and need to be replaced as well as the cams. If these are the originals they are between 16 and 17 years old. I also tighten the bolt which holds the rudder in the casting quite tight so the rudder will not drop from the raised position and then slowly back off the nut until it drops freely, this will take out most of the slop in the rudder casting.
I wouldn't worry about the width as much as the slot elongating. Sometimes they wear down from the bolt that holds the spring being too tight. Once this happens they are useless; unless of course you find a talented welder that can put bead in there and re-mill them. Even then getting new ones may be the route to go.
Re: the fore and aft play, you may want to consider replacing all the bolts associated to the casting sometimes they get bent and worn; as well, replace the lock bolt on the rudder itself and the springs. And, check you grudgons.
Like Hullflyer said, the Prindle system works great if maintained properly.
If you do get the new rudders get with me off list, I may be interested in your old ones.
I am also thinking about upgrading mine. Where are you getting yours from? By the way when you mention widening of the casting you mean side to side?. I have some play here and solved it by taping a small piece of carpet material on the inside of the casting.
Castings: My boat is a 1986 and still has it's origonal castings .... but I've done the following to them ... I've installed double lock-down springs and filed carefully the lock-down bolt/hook to round the "point" slightly. This allows the bolt/hook to hook easier.
Yah ... there is nothing like being on a "screaming reach" and all of a sudden you can wiggle the rudders and NOTHING happens ... you keep going straight like a rocket!!!! So the new rudders are great, I've never had that problem again ... the extra 4" of rudder length are great.
Here is the problem ... due to the sideways loading on the rudder blades the blades flex ... now the blades are manufactured as two shells then placed in a mold and filled w/ the "white compound?" in the middle, Ok? Now this compound is not very strong in "shear". You see since the blade is deflecting sideways .... one side is longer (outside curve), the other side is shorter (inside curve) ... this generates internal shears. my blades (first set) after maybe 40hrs of sailing started to split along the seam from the top down until I could hold the two sides apart 1/2"-1".
To fix I reglued them together w/ WEST ... next I sanded the gel coat off of the outside down to the "taper" to gain some room ... then I drilled 18-20 3/8" hole from side to side and installed 3/8" wooden dowels to pin the sides together, Ok? After sanding the dowels flush, I used epoxy and 2" tape then re-skinned the top to seal the dowels in to eliminate the seam and further bond the two sides together. I had just used one layer of "tape" on the first attempt to repair and it didn't last but a day or two .... then re-split ...
I've had no further problem ... next I have to fix my second set of blades so as to have a back-up set.
I do still have my origonal P19 blades ... make me an offer.
Next, for my MX upgrade I installed a NACRA 6.0NA bowfoil to help reduce the horizontal loading on the bows and translate them into the vertical axis where the P19 hulls are strongest.
FYI: Last week there was two threads that were/are about P19 ... please read my posts as I mention some of my upgrades for the P19MX there.
Sail Safe, Sail Flat, Sail Fast Harry Murphey P19MX w/spin, #86/ CRAC H18mag #9458 / Fleet 54, Div11
I just looked at you pic ... see the "flat" ... then that "sharp" 45 degree bend? ... round that corner and slope that "flat" side towards the the hook end slightly
Rudder blades are $215 ea, and castings are $297 ea from murrays.com
My picture was taken yesterday morning. By yesterday afternoon the rudder wouldn't stay locked down because the lock bolt shifted (clockwise in the picture) and the 2 sides of the blade have separated, etc.
When it was locked down the rudder blade at the bottom had about 3/4" play fore and aft due to movement of the spring bolt in the deformed (widened) slot in the casting. I was hoping someone would confirm that the slot (covered by the spring bolt in the picture)was not supposed to be wider at that point than the rest of the slot. I was curious to know if it could be repaired. Probably not.
I have read all the recent threads and was encouraged to see P19 sailors posting here. I am still encouraging the crew to work the jib so not ready for a spinnaker yet. Foil, maybe after the rudders.
The castings are so expensive I am wondering if I should just put up with the wobble. Sounds like longer blades will be worth it.
Trick: the pressure from the water flowwing over/past the blade will force the blade back ... adjust it to the "proper" position/rake ... next make a "bumper" to lock the blade from moving for and aft ... how??? .... wrap the blade in plastic wrap, put a big glob of silicone or even 3M5200 into the casting at the lowest point ... push blade into the "proper" position ... allow to harden ... trim off excess ....
You know that if you can locate some "origonal P18 rudder blades they are/where longer the the P16/P18-2/P19 origonal equipment blades ... that what some of the guys have done.
The Bowfoil REALLY stiffen's up the boat ... when she drives through a wave the hulls react together not independent ... ie: step walk over the wave. When my friend and I converted to MX rigs we had my boat w/ foil and his w/o ... I could just out point and walk away upwind and downwind ... and he always beat me before, the next weekend he had a foil
I've got to take some pic's and post them .... that will be a learning process for me ...
As we are all friends here could you identify yourself w/ a name??? It is part of the "Code of Sportsmanship" that we sailors adhere to and of this forum ... it goes also back centuries to the "Code of Chivalry".
Sail Safe, Sail Flat, Sail Fast Harry Murphey P19MX w/spin, #86/ CRAC H18mag, #9458/ Fleet54, Div11
Re: prindle 19 rudders
[Re: HMurphey]
#150712 07/29/0806:14 AM07/29/0806:14 AM
Hello I added a signature and I see it goes on all the old posts. I recently found a 35 year old picture of me (or someone in the family) sailing my father's Hobie 14 (#1190)on Clear Lake (south of Houston). Years later I had a H16 until the top of one hull lifted off at the shroud attachment. Then the P19 which I sailed on Lake Lewisville until last several years on Cedar Creek Lake where catamaran sailors are pretty lonely. Not that I mind being the fastest sailboat on the lake.
Now that I looked at the N20 parts manual (briefly) I can admit I don't know what the bowfoil looks like. I assume it is like a cross beam attaching at the bridle attachment points.
I like the idea of the bumper, I'm sure I can make it for less than $600. Thanks for the tip about the P18 blades. I keep looking for used boats in the area that I could use for parts, cause at my error rate, replacement parts are killing me.
The bowfoil I am referring to is from the NACRA 6.0 NA, not the I20/N20, (origonally the I20 was introduced as the "Inter20", but later it was/is refered to as the Nacra20 as the manufacture was Performance/Nacra Catamarans). There is a Nacra 5.5 w/ a bowfoil ... I tried one of those first but it wasn't wide enough to reduce the bridle attachment angles enough for my purposes.
My friend made a foil from a section of broken I20/N20 mast (its carbon fiber)and installed a "pelican striker" (a dolphin striker that's on the topside) as you are pulling up on the bowfoil, not like the front crossbar where the loading is pushing down. The Nacra 6.0 NA bowfoil is constructed using a "big boat" aluminum spreader extrusion w/ a stainless steel "pelican striker" and cast aluminum end caps. My bridles are Alsteel/Vectra line and the foil is set 10" above the deck at the ends using a straight edge set from bow to bow w/ a 1" prebend in the middle (9" in the middle). I tried SS wire w/ marine eye fittings (at $45.00/side) but they continually broke due to the short length and flexing ... I've found the Alsteel Line to be much better ... much, much cheaper ... I used small shackles at the bridle attachment points and just looped the 1/8" alsteel line around 3X's. I replace it every few years for $3-4's.
I've got to take and post some pic's ... I just need to borrow a digital camera and learn how to post them ....
Sail Safe, Sail Flat, Sail Fast Harry Murphey P19MX w/spin, #86/ CRAC H18mag, #9458/ Fleet 54,Div11
Rudder blades are $215 ea, and castings are $297 ea from murrays.com
I think you will need to get longer tubes for the tiller arms and different grudgons for the transom. The kit from Murray's is about 175.00. And, you can order direct from Performance to 714-835-6416. Also, make sure rudders are pre-drilled.
Now that I think about it you may want to inquire about upgrading to the Inter/NACRA 580 style system
Thank You John for reminding me of the longer tiller arms and longer gudgeons ... when I purchased my upgrade kit years ago it was all included .... Blades, gudgeons, tiller arms and new lines (pull-down and release) for the casting ... I think the kit costed me $250.00 ... but that was 10+ yrs ago. So I don't think that deal is still availible at that price .... but it can't hurt to call and ask ....
Sail Safe, Sail Flat, Sail Fast Harry Murphey P19MX, #86/ CRAC H18mag w/spin, #9458/ Fleet54, Div11
Yes the rudders were predrilled. One was even pre-chipped.
7 of the 8 bolts needed to secure the new gudgeons were installed without a problem. The 8th one just hits a solid stop inside the transom rather than a hole. I have read (here of course) that there is an aluminum plate secured to the inside. I think I must have dislodged it when I backed the boat and trailer up and the rudder dropped (don't do that by the way) as the old gudgeon had a noticeable twist in it.
I read this "The stock 1/4" bolts will not take the additional stress of the new rudders over time. Replace with 5/16", usually not a problem to carefully drill and tap. The al backing is pretty thick if it is still anchored to the transom. DO NOT Peel off deck. With patience and ingenuity you can work from the gap at the bottom of the bulkhead. If you want to go faster or through-bolt, holesaw a handhole through the bulkhead." by Steve Blevins a few years back. Hoping he will be reading this.
I am short on patience and lack the ingenuity to think of a way to work through that small hole at the bottom of the bulkhead, short of borrowing a surgeon or GI doc with a fiberoptic endoscope.
I could just drill through and tap what I assume is the Al plate that stops the hole but would like to know exactly what is going on back there.
Anyone have an idea how to get a look at it withoud cutting a hand hole in the bulkhead. Fiberoptics anyone?
Do you have a web cam? I had a hole on my 18-2 behind that bulkhead where the hull sits on the roller. I put a web cam at the opening of the hole, then put a flashlight next to it. Wasn't the best picture resolution, but I could at lease see what was in there.
Yes the rudders were predrilled. One was even pre-chipped. Anyone have an idea how to get a look at it withoud cutting a hand hole in the bulkhead. Fiberoptics anyone?
Install a 4" inspection similar to what you forward the rear cross beam. As for re-taping the holes it really doesn't take much in the way of skills - just do two at a time if that will help you comfort level.
If you go the inspection port route you may want to consider a backing plate with nuts - nylock - aircraft my recommendation.
