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Re: Aaron and Mark [Re: Wouter] #152165
08/13/08 07:01 AM
08/13/08 07:01 AM
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 160
claus Offline
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Quote

Standard sloop F16 Texel = 102, SCHRS = 1.01
Code-0 sloop F16 Texel = 88. SCHRS = 0.831

Wouter


Does the Code-0 calculation include setting the (downwind) spi area to 0? This would suggest an enourmous speed potential in the "useable" wind ranges.

Last edited by claus; 08/13/08 07:03 AM.
-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: Aaron and Mark [Re: claus] #152166
08/13/08 08:56 AM
08/13/08 08:56 AM
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 160
claus Offline
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claus  Offline
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Anyhow, going back to the subject of this post, although the T class rules perfectly permit using a code 0, it clearly is against the principle of equality inherent to olympics. A nice read goes here: http://www.olympic.org/common/asp/download_report.asp?file=en_report_700.pdf&id=700
I wonder if using such a sail (if a code 0 equipped boat say gets a medal) would not produce a very negative reaction from the IOC towards the Tornado, multihulls and even sailing in general? We will be giving the perfect argument to the people against sailing in the olympics. Shure you may say the equipment we propose is strictly one design, but how strict can a set of class rules be?

Re: Aaron and Mark [Re: claus] #152167
08/13/08 09:51 AM
08/13/08 09:51 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Wouter  Offline
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Quote

Does the Code-0 calculation include setting the (downwind) spi area to 0? This would suggest an enourmous speed potential in the "useable" wind ranges.



Yes and no.

These rating systems were developped to accurately rate optimized sloop rigs, this assumes an optimal interaction between jib and mainsail. However you can't maintain the latter when adding a code-0. Sure the performance will increase some by adding the code-0 but it is really doubtful whether it will be by the amount these rating system predict.

Compare it to this. I can also add a 40 sq. mtr. spinnaker to a Tornado (old worrell 1000 style) and the rating systems will duly predict a proportional performance increase. However, we have all learned since then that a 25 sq. mtr spinnaker is faster then this monster spi even though it is significantly smaller. The same can be said for replacing the current jibs by a monster jib called a code-0.

Wouter


Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: Aaron and Mark [Re: claus] #152168
08/13/08 12:03 PM
08/13/08 12:03 PM
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 206
Yardley PA
DanWard Offline
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DanWard  Offline
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Yardley PA
What you have is two different configurations both of which satisfy the rule. Who's to say that one is more legitimate than the other. How is one clearly against the principal of equality while the other is not. I'm not even sure it's a problem. Sailors pick their weapon and live with it. If conditions change the advantage shifts. It’s an added dimension (not that our sport is short on dimensions) and has made me more, not less interested.

Re: Should the Code 0 gennaker be used at the Olympics [Re: windswept] #152169
08/13/08 12:27 PM
08/13/08 12:27 PM
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 5,558
Key Largo, FL & Put-in-Bay, OH...
Mary Offline
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Mary  Offline
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Key Largo, FL & Put-in-Bay, OH...
I know this is probably a stupid question: What does that term "Code 0" mean and where did it come from?

Re: Aaron and Mark [Re: DanWard] #152170
08/13/08 12:30 PM
08/13/08 12:30 PM
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 160
claus Offline
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Mary, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spinnaker

Dan, the point is not that one configuration is more equal than other, but that the two very different configurations (essentialy two different rigs!) in the same fleet provide a big disequality in equipment. This certainly is not the initial idea about fleet racing in the olympics. Will the IOC like that "added dimension"?

Last edited by claus; 08/13/08 12:33 PM.
Re: Should the Code 0 gennaker be used at the Olympics [Re: Mary] #152171
08/13/08 01:01 PM
08/13/08 01:01 PM

A
Anonymous
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A



White = Genoa
Blue = Full Asymmetrical
Red = Code Zero

[Linked Image]

Doyle's Code Zero is a hybrid spinnaker-genoa that measures with a minimum midgirth of 75% of the foot length and a leech length of not greater than 95% of the luff. The sail is uniquely shaped to sail at close apparent wind angles from 30 - 55 AWA.

Re: Should the Code 0 gennaker be used at the Olympics [Re: ] #152172
08/13/08 01:35 PM
08/13/08 01:35 PM
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 93
USA1273 Offline
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USA1273  Offline
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Posts: 93
Code 0 was a term that came about to identify a sail that was outside the "normal" sail wardrobe. For example big boats classify sails G or J 1,2,3,4,5 and A Kites as A 1,2,3,4. The J or G 1 being your light air jib or genoa and the A1 being your VMG kite (less cloth in the shoulders smaller girths etc).

These reaching sails that try to beat the design rules as a high reaching sail generally get slapped with a Code0 or A0 designation. For example the TP 52 had a huge genoa that they classified as a Code 0 until the class made them legal for distance racing, which at that time they became known as Masthead Genoas.

Anywhere else in the world the RED sail above would be classified as a A0.


F18 USA 1273
Andrews 77 (SOLD) Melges 32 (SOLD) Formula18 Olympic 49er (FOR SALE)
Always outnumbered - Never outgunned....
Re: Should the Code 0 gennaker be used at the Olympics [Re: Mary] #152173
08/13/08 02:04 PM
08/13/08 02:04 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
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Wouter  Offline
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There doesn't seem to be a clear uniform definition for these sails. In this thread we call them code-0's because that is how the monohull oriented sailing press call them. However according to Andrew Scott definitions (Doyle) we cat sailors actually call Code-0's assymmetric spinnakers or just plain spinnakers (75%-95% mid girth measurement) and the Booth sail is actually a Genoa.

Other names fro these sails are : reachers, hooters, screachers, furling spis and some others I have forgotten.

Wouter


Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: Should the Code 0 gennaker be used at the Olympics [Re: Wouter] #152174
08/13/08 02:39 PM
08/13/08 02:39 PM

A
Anonymous
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Anonymous
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A



I call my spinnaker "GET IN THE DAMN SNUFFER YOU POC"!

Then i throuw my harness at the tramp. spout out more profanities, and then i crawl out on the bow and untangle the spagatti from all over.

I had to try every trick in the book (soak in holmenkol, lube all poles, release the tack 1', dump the travler, head almost dead down wind... buy her flowers), but on sunday, the 2 times i snuffed it behaved much better and i was happier (and curesed much less)


Oh yea, about the Doyle info.. that was from their site and i dont think it was directed to catamaran sails.. don't know if it should matter.. but thought it was interesting data.

Re: Aaron and Mark [Re: claus] #152175
08/13/08 04:04 PM
08/13/08 04:04 PM
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 206
Yardley PA
DanWard Offline
enthusiast
DanWard  Offline
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Yardley PA
Quote
Mary, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spinnaker

Dan, the point is not that one configuration is more equal than other, but that the two very different configurations (essentialy two different rigs!) in the same fleet provide a big disequality in equipment. This certainly is not the initial idea about fleet racing in the olympics. Will the IOC like that "added dimension"?

I get your point and I suspect you’re right that the IOC will not like this development.

Re: Aaron and Mark [Re: DanWard] #152176
08/13/08 05:26 PM
08/13/08 05:26 PM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 894
Branford, CT
rhodysail Offline
old hand
rhodysail  Offline
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Branford, CT
Quote
What you have is two different configurations both of which satisfy the rule. Who's to say that one is more legitimate than the other. How is one clearly against the principal of equality while the other is not. I'm not even sure it's a problem. Sailors pick their weapon and live with it. If conditions change the advantage shifts. It’s an added dimension (not that our sport is short on dimensions) and has made me more, not less interested.



I could not have said that better.
Thanks.

Re: Aaron and Mark [Re: DanWard] #152177
08/13/08 05:50 PM
08/13/08 05:50 PM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 1,200
Vancouver, BC
Tornado Offline
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Tornado  Offline
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Vancouver, BC
Quote
Quote
Mary, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spinnaker

Dan, the point is not that one configuration is more equal than other, but that the two very different configurations (essentialy two different rigs!) in the same fleet provide a big disequality in equipment. This certainly is not the initial idea about fleet racing in the olympics. Will the IOC like that "added dimension"?

I get your point and I suspect you’re right that the IOC will not like this development.


What's going to happen, throw the T's out of the next games?
Oh, that already happened! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />


Mike Dobbs
Tornado CAN 99 "Full Tilt"
Re: Aaron and Mark [Re: rhodysail] #152178
08/14/08 12:26 AM
08/14/08 12:26 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,293
Long Beach, California
John Williams Offline
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John Williams  Offline
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Long Beach, California
From Charlie's blog...

Qingdao, China - August 13, 2008 - The first race day for the Tornado Class in the Olympic Games is almost upon us. Tomorrow we sail a practice race and then on Friday we line up on Course A, the inshore race course right off the harbour breakwater and spectator grandstand, for the start of Race One. Two races are scheduled.

For everyone who wants to see Tornado Racing on television, the races on Friday will be your only opportunity before the Medal Race at the end of the series. NBC-TV will feature our racing live in a two-hour web-TV segment between 1:00 am and 3:00 am Eastern on Friday morning at http://www.nbcolympics.com/sailing/index.html. After that the footage will be archived and available for play-on-demand.

We completed our boat and sail measurements over the last couple of days, including the successful measuring in of our radical Chupacabra Code Zero gennaker. With the sail measured in and officially accepted, the only remaining decision was whether to employ it or stick with a standard gennaker during the series. We can’t have both. It was a tough and risky call. We know the sail will power us up in really light conditions going to windward, but in any breeze over 11 knots we’ll only be able to use it downwind and we’ll risk being outgunned by boats with standard gennakers. After carefully weighing the odds, we decided to press ahead and use it.

This versatile undersized gennaker which allows us to power to windward through a chop in really light airs has been considered by several teams since our development work became public about five weeks ago. We know for sure that our Dutch training partners Mitch Booth and Pim Nieuwenhuis have elected to go with a similar sail. We don’t know about others.

The sail has attracted a great deal of media attention and even questions about its legality. Everyone has an opinion but the simple truth is we have tweaked our sails for light air. In the Tornado Class every team has worked exceptionally hard to gain an edge and optimize every facet of their boat, rig and sails. Everyone has made their own choices on sail materials and special sail designs and shapes for the expected conditions. We did the same as everyone else, except that we designed and built a smaller sail that would be more adaptable in the four to eight knot wind range that we expect to predominate in the coming days.


Read more at Johnny and Charlie's blog at www.t-squaredracing.com

Get 'em, boys. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />


John Williams

- The harder you practice, the luckier you get -
Gary Player, pro golfer

After watching Lionel Messi play, I realize I need to sail harder.
Re: Aaron and Mark [Re: John Williams] #152179
08/14/08 03:09 AM
08/14/08 03:09 AM
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 285
C
Catfan Offline
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So only John/Charlie and Mitch/Pim went for the Code 0.
Let's wait and see how it will perform in the light and medium conditions (the forecast for the first two races is 15-20 knots). There is a general consensus that it may be an handicap in 11 to 18 knots, but over it may be again competitive.
This is an excerpt from today The Dailysail:
QUOTE
The forecast is critical to the call, with much fresher winds expected at the weekend. One Chinese forecast predicted 20 knots on Saturday and, accurate or not, this could still validate the Code 0 choice. Opinions differ about the gennaker’s precise optimum operating range, but 5-11 knots upwind seems to be the consensus. After that the Code 0 is short of grunt downwind, until the wind increases to the late teens when the small 18sqm gennaker boats can sail as fast as Tornadoes carrying conventional full-sized 25sqm spinnakers.
UNQUOTE

Re: Aaron and Mark [Re: Catfan] #152180
08/14/08 04:58 AM
08/14/08 04:58 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Wouter  Offline
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Quote

until the wind increases to the late teens when the small 18sqm gennaker boats can sail as fast as Tornadoes carrying conventional full-sized 25sqm spinnakers.



I still believe the conventional assymmetric will point lower in 18+ winds then the Code-0. So same speed maybe but at a higher angle. By definition almost the code-0 will have a rather flat entry (luff of the sail) and that will require the angle of attackt to be smaller then with a conventional spinnaker where the luff is significantly more rounded.

I have yet to experience being overpowered under spinnaker to such an extent that I had to flog the conventional speed because I couldn't steer any lower. So I dont think the smaller size of the code-0 is any advantage here. In theory the Code-0 can sustain higher downwind speeds because it won't collapse till a much higher apparent windspeed angle but I'm not at all convinced that the associated water surface condition will ever allow these speeds barring really unique situations with really flat water and very strong winds.

Of course I can be totally wrong but I really do see the Code-0 as step closed to a reaching sail then the assymmetric spinnaker. That means it has all the disadvantages that come with it as well, most notibly : less pointing upwind and less pointing downwind. In all conditions the old rig was nicely powered up the code-0 will be at a disadvantages and this includes 18+ wind in my opinion.

So now that my cards are on the table, lets see if reality strokes with the models ! Let the racing begin.

Wouter


Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: Aaron and Mark [Re: Wouter] #152181
08/14/08 05:26 AM
08/14/08 05:26 AM

A
Anonymous
Unregistered
Anonymous
Unregistered
A



Only Charlie and John, will be going 0, Mitch has selected his normal kite.

linky

Re: Aaron and Mark [Re: ] #152182
08/14/08 06:02 AM
08/14/08 06:02 AM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 4,451
West coast of Norway
Rolf_Nilsen Offline
Carpal Tunnel
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West coast of Norway
Whow! What a gamble they are doing. Talk about throwing the dice..

Re: Aaron and Mark [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #152183
08/14/08 06:13 AM
08/14/08 06:13 AM
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,669
Melbourne, Australia
Tornado_ALIVE Offline
Pooh-Bah
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Melbourne, Australia
US measured in 2 code zero's...... Talk about shutting down your options.

They will either be heros or zeros come next week.


Re: Aaron and Mark [Re: Tornado_ALIVE] #152184
08/14/08 07:07 AM
08/14/08 07:07 AM
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 2,584
+31NL
Tony_F18 Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Tony_F18  Offline
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+31NL
Does this link work from abroad?: http://os2008.nos.nl/live/index/kanaal/4
(MS SilverLight required, better use IE).
Here's where the T's racing will be live tommorow morning (7:00 overhere).

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