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Interesting Info to Share #152579
08/13/08 11:55 PM
08/13/08 11:55 PM
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singapore
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ckuang Offline OP
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Hey guys, just wanted to share some really interesting info Our local cat guru, Scott M, had just conducted an interview with Greg Goodall last weekend when he passed through Singapore.

We'd been experimenting with some new settings he had provided using 2 boat pacing for the last few weeks and the interview is somewhat of a consolidation of what we had also discovered for ourselves. The interview can be seen here

http://boatsbikesboards.wordpress.com/

I think the interview is especially interesting for anyone sailing a boat with the full F16 width and the aluminium masts that comes with the AHPC boats.

Interesting times ahead <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

--Advertisement--
Re: Interesting Info to Share [Re: ckuang] #152580
08/14/08 12:24 AM
08/14/08 12:24 AM
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Central Coast NSW Australia
TonyJ Offline
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Good read.

Thanks for the tip.

Now all we need is a Singapore association, and let the interesting times begin.


Teach them how to think. Not what to think. Aus Blade 002
Re: Interesting Info to Share [Re: TonyJ] #152581
08/14/08 12:46 AM
08/14/08 12:46 AM
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taipanfc Offline
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Push and prod "ckuang" and Alice Lim to get a Singapore Association going.

And the Singapore F16s will racing at a local regatta over the next few weekends, linky here: www.westerncircuit.com

Due to unforseen circumstances and all sorts of other things, I will either be on the TP52 or sailing demonstration races.

Re: Interesting Info to Share [Re: taipanfc] #152582
08/14/08 11:38 PM
08/14/08 11:38 PM
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 81
singapore
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ckuang Offline OP
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Hey Taipanfc, not sailing your new boat? Darn, was hoping to see it out on the water. Am really curious to see what it looks like. saw the hulls at RM already and they boats are really really well finished.

Looking forward to the weekend of racing.

Re: Interesting Info to Share [Re: ckuang] #152583
08/15/08 12:16 AM
08/15/08 12:16 AM
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taipanfc Offline
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Was told by the committee the cat fleet didn't want us racing with you guys. Bit strange I thought, maybe scared <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> But will be out there tomorrow morning having a blast before doing training on the TP if you want a look see.

Re: Interesting Info to Share [Re: taipanfc] #152584
08/15/08 12:33 AM
08/15/08 12:33 AM
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Posts: 81
singapore
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ckuang Offline OP
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Ah I see. Yes, i heard talk about that. Haha, but they way some of the sailors in the cat fleet sail, are you sure you want to put your brand spanking new boat on the line with us? <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Even I'm planning delayed starts for the next few weekends. The last time I tried going for it I managed to get a hole punched in my A from a barging taipan.

Re: Interesting Info to Share [Re: ckuang] #152585
08/17/08 08:12 PM
08/17/08 08:12 PM
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Posts: 81
singapore
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ckuang Offline OP
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for Blade sailors, there's a new post up n the blog about a new blade being tested out. This blade has modified beams and running a goodall F16 sail instead of the standard configuration.

Re: Interesting Info to Share [Re: ckuang] #152586
08/18/08 05:34 AM
08/18/08 05:34 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
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You replaced the stock rudders and rudderstock with Viper rudders and (alu) stocks ?

That suprises me, from the look I had in 2007 these Viper components were most certainly not superior.

Beams, yes.

Quote

dropped on the most advanced F16 rig.


Well, that Ullman rig that was on it was not exactly a winner. I have experienced myself the difference between the Ullman and Ashby or Glaser sails and it was quite noticeable. That Ullman rig is a passed station for at least 1.5 years now in my opinion. A real pitty as Ullman should really have been able to design a good suit of sails, but ...


Quote

Downwind well, that was a lot more interesting.


I think the hybrid Blade and Taipan are subject to the same behaviour. You have to start steering the boat down BEFORE the gust or wave hits the boat under spinnaker, not after or during them. Many sailors seem to forget this dictum. Of course, this can be "corrected" by putting heaps of volume in the bows but beyond some point only at the expense of something else. Having said this I personally think there is some room in the hybrid Blade for additional bow height and therefor a little more volume. I think the Aussie Blade has gotten the distribution just right as indeed the Viper seem to have. I overheard some designers comment on this topic during the 2007 Global Challenge and the consensus seemed to be that mostly bow height was important here and much less overall volume. The hulls of the Viper are very tall and the Aussie Blade are taller as well. Taipan is modestly tall but has almost no volume there and the VWM Blade is halveway between these. Still, with proper technique this difference can be corrected quite well. And the proper technique is to start steering down before the gust hits, accellerate the turn during the gust and start head-up when the gust starts winding down. Again, this makes quite a difference and should also be employed on the Viper and Aussie Blade for maximum performance.


One more suggestion. Move that rotation arm from underneath the boom to above the trampoline. No drawbacks worth mentioning and you'll increase the perceiped space on the trampoline significantly. Less eyepoking during fast 2-up gybes. Stitch some small strips of cloth on the trampoline in an arc like fashion and you'll have your mast rotation measurement for quick resetting.

Good luck nice to hear about these experiments ! Anxious for more.

Wouter


Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: Interesting Info to Share [Re: Wouter] #152587
08/18/08 08:46 AM
08/18/08 08:46 AM
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taipanfc Offline
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Rudders replaced as the original McKenzie ones had heaps of problems. Can't remember exact details, but the locking mechanism was stuffed and I think they were cracking.

If they are still using the original Blade mast, then there is a big hole at the bottom of the mast where the original spanner was. Either bad installation or bad design, but the bolts really ripped up a big hole on either side of the mast so this is the only alternative. Much prefer the desk sweeper, a lot less friction and prefer rotation to be independent from mainsheet tension.

Wouldn't mind seeing a high aspect board on this boat rather than the fat Taipan boards.

Re: Interesting Info to Share [Re: taipanfc] #152588
08/18/08 08:50 AM
08/18/08 08:50 AM
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Posts: 4,451
West coast of Norway
Rolf_Nilsen Offline

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Quote
Wouldn't mind seeing a high aspect board on this boat rather than the fat Taipan boards.


Are you saying they put Taipan boards in agent orange and the described Blade (or is it the same boat)?

Re: Interesting Info to Share [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #152589
08/18/08 09:33 AM
08/18/08 09:33 AM
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Posts: 539
taipanfc Offline
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Both Agent Orange and the Hybrid use Taipan c/boards. Can see it in the pics in the link ckuang put in the first post.

Also have to congratulate ckuang on 3 bullets on the first weekend of Western Circuit. Certainly doing very well jumping from the A to the Viper.

Re: Interesting Info to Share [Re: taipanfc] #152590
08/18/08 09:40 AM
08/18/08 09:40 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
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Quote

Rudders replaced as the original McKenzie ones had heaps of problems.



Ohhh, you guys still had the McKenzie ones, those were indeed a load of crap. The first (prototype)set for testing was alright but for the full order he delivered what can only be described as junk.

I too broke one of them in 2 minutes of sailing; a few years back. I wouldn't want to have a set of those if I got them for free ! Nobody in the F16 class is ever going to do business with him again. The class and Blade builders got burned there. Luckily only 4 boats ever got fitted with those. I'm amazed the hybrid Blade was still fitted with these. The others have scrapped these years ago.


Quote

If they are still using the original Blade mast, then there is a big hole at the bottom of the mast where the original spanner was.



There is ? I haven't seen that with the Blades overhere.


Quote

Wouldn't mind seeing a high aspect board on this boat rather than the fat Taipan boards.


Became standard to the design from early the 2007 onwards. Still, I'm amazed at how well the low aspect boards seem to do in comparison.

Wouter

Last edited by Wouter; 08/18/08 09:47 AM.

Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: Interesting Info to Share [Re: taipanfc] #152591
08/18/08 09:44 AM
08/18/08 09:44 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
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North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
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Quote

Both Agent Orange and the Hybrid use Taipan c/boards.



Actually, this dependents on how you define the Taipan boards.

I can't speak for agent orange, but the hybrid and other Blades delivered with the low aspect daggerboards all use a longer daggerboard then the Taipan but of the same general shape. It differs in some other details as well, but not enough to be obviously different.

And indeed congratulations to Ckuang !

Wouter


Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: Interesting Info to Share [Re: Wouter] #152592
08/18/08 10:27 AM
08/18/08 10:27 AM
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taipanfc Offline
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I have dealt with McKenzie for quite a while and if the boards are specced correctly, then they are really good. Had a set for the Taipan, and for that they were built a bit differently (as requested) and never had any problem over 3 yrs. Got a set for the A, and these are a lot lighter but you need to be careful in certain cases otherwise they will snap, eg do a big round up in windy conditions and not ease the main first into it.

In relation to spanner, as I said either design flaw or bad installation. I was rather shocked how bad it was, but it was at a stage that hard to tell the initial reason why.

And yes, the Blade c/boards are an inch or 2 deeper, and those boards are still quite good. But comment was on a Viper/Capricorn style deep high aspect board.

Re: Interesting Info to Share [Re: taipanfc] #152593
08/18/08 10:54 PM
08/18/08 10:54 PM
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 81
singapore
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ckuang Offline OP
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Quote
Both Agent Orange and the Hybrid use Taipan c/boards. Can see it in the pics in the link ckuang put in the first post.

Also have to congratulate ckuang on 3 bullets on the first weekend of Western Circuit. Certainly doing very well jumping from the A to the Viper.


Awww, thanks for the well wishes guys. It really was a fun race with the downwind legs becoming gybing duels between all the 3 vipers. It's amazing how close in speed these boats are. I must say the F16 viper is probably one of the very best boats i have ever owned. I really "get" the design and understand why the boat behaves the way it does. Although there are still some mysteries I'm trying to find the answers to though.

Just to clarify some doubts about the hybrid blade, the mast is the new ahpc section and not the original section which came with the blade. I believe the original one had the mast rotation moved from tramp level to the boom level because it had corroded badly.

On the hybrid blade, the only thing original is just the hulls, everything else are parts taken from a viper. As far as viper rudder casing goes, yes, i did try to find out of there were carbon casings in the works, unfortunately, when I inquired via the local dealers, apparently the answer was a negative and ahpc has no plans to offer carbon casings for the viper as of now. Of course, at the level we sail at in Singapore, I don't think carbon anything is going to make a difference. None of us here are headed off to the olympics anytime soon. I just wanted to find out because I just wanted to pimp out my boat, you kinda like the sailing equivalent of the MTV show, "Pimp my ride" haha

I like the mast rotation a la A class style as well where it is just above the tramp. I'm not too sure what the benefit is of having it just below the boom. Less clutter perhaps?

And yes, the Mackenzie rudders were apparently awful on the F16. all the blades snapped on the early boats like agent orange and a F16 taipan, which is really too bad because the carbon casing etc looked really awesome.

I'm really looking forward to getting a chance to have a blade vs viper fight on the water. BTW, I had no idea that the Australian bade hull has more volume than the American made blade hull. Is that true?

Re: Interesting Info to Share [Re: ckuang] #152594
08/19/08 05:31 AM
08/19/08 05:31 AM
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Wouter Offline
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With respect to the McKenzies; I wonder why you guys never replaced them with the AHPC Carbon stocks (as delivered for the Taipan 4.9's) as they are very good indeed. The cast alu Viper Stocks are heavy in my opinion and present no real advantage over bend alu tube stocks that are significantly lighter. The guy building these is near to me (10 km away max) and I was surprised to hear his quotes on these. These bend tube stocks appear to be the best alternative to carbon stocks; both in weight and cost. Fellow F16 owners at my club have been using these for two years now and no issues with them. These stocks also allow the rudders to be rotated upwards by more then 180 degrees see picture.

[Linked Image]


Quote

I'm really looking forward to getting a chance to have a blade vs viper fight on the water. BTW, I had no idea that the Australian bade hull has more volume than the American made blade hull. Is that true?


Yes. however the more important difference is in the freeboard. The Aussie Blade hull has a higher freeboard and the bows themselves are taller as well. This while keeping largely the same overall appearance. I think the sterns are a little more narrow as well. Basically, the Aussie Blade is an evolution to the American Blade driven by the experience gained on the first model models (both timber homebuilds and series production). Ohh, before I forget the Aussie Blade has different beams as well; although these beams are offered to anyone wanting to use them.

Having said all this, when the two boats when head to head at both the 2007 and 2008 F16 global challenge the skippers sailing them were extremely close in performance. Although the comments were that the Aussie Blade handled the heavy seastate better under spi. Upwind was anyones game. Same with respect to the Viper F16 sailed by Greg in the later days. In direct comparison there was surprisingly little difference even when one boat handled certain conditions more comfortably then the other.

Personally I put this down to the engines (rigs) being so well limited by the class rules as to be identical in all intents and purposes. Of course at these events we only had sails made by proper and highly regarded sailmakers. Glaser, Ashby and Landenberger. The Aussie Blade was carrying a more experimental sail and I don't really know where to place that for lack of other data.

Wouter




Attached Files
155506-9840.jpg (137 downloads)
Last edited by Wouter; 08/19/08 05:47 AM.

Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: Interesting Info to Share [Re: Wouter] #152595
08/19/08 06:24 AM
08/19/08 06:24 AM
Joined: Aug 2002
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Brighton, UK
grob Offline
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Would it be possible to make these bent tube stocks at home, if it is not a proprietary design does anyone have any good photos's of these stocks.

Gareth

Last edited by grob; 08/19/08 06:56 AM.
Re: Interesting Info to Share [Re: grob] #152596
08/19/08 06:59 AM
08/19/08 06:59 AM

A
Anonymous
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Grob yes you can make them at home, but you'll need a little practice.

1. Scribe a circle on some 25mm ply (your tube will spring a little so go 10-15mm small than the required inner diam.

2. create a clamp and bending lever as shown.

3. clamp in some suitable tube (20 or 25mm).

4. Rotate lever in one single slow movement, going beyond 180 degrees..

4. and repeat for 4 similar parts then cut to length and join with either welds or rivets..

Attached Files
155511-Drawing2-Model.jpg (189 downloads)
Last edited by Scarecrow; 08/19/08 07:00 AM.
Re: Interesting Info to Share [Re: Wouter] #152597
08/19/08 11:27 AM
08/19/08 11:27 AM
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scooby_simon Offline
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Quote
With respect to the McKenzies; I wonder why you guys never replaced them with the AHPC Carbon stocks (as delivered for the Taipan 4.9's) as they are very good indeed. The cast alu Viper Stocks are heavy in my opinion and present no real advantage over bend alu tube stocks that are significantly lighter. The guy building these is near to me (10 km away max) and I was surprised to hear his quotes on these. These bend tube stocks appear to be the best alternative to carbon stocks; both in weight and cost. Fellow F16 owners at my club have been using these for two years now and no issues with them. These stocks also allow the rudders to be rotated upwards by more then 180 degrees see picture.

[Linked Image]


Quote

I'm really looking forward to getting a chance to have a blade vs viper fight on the water. BTW, I had no idea that the Australian bade hull has more volume than the American made blade hull. Is that true?


Yes. however the more important difference is in the freeboard. The Aussie Blade hull has a higher freeboard and the bows themselves are taller as well. This while keeping largely the same overall appearance. I think the sterns are a little more narrow as well. Basically, the Aussie Blade is an evolution to the American Blade driven by the experience gained on the first model models (both timber homebuilds and series production). Ohh, before I forget the Aussie Blade has different beams as well; although these beams are offered to anyone wanting to use them.

Having said all this, when the two boats when head to head at both the 2007 and 2008 F16 global challenge the skippers sailing them were extremely close in performance. Although the comments were that the Aussie Blade handled the heavy seastate better under spi. Upwind was anyones game. Same with respect to the Viper F16 sailed by Greg in the later days. In direct comparison there was surprisingly little difference even when one boat handled certain conditions more comfortably then the other.

Personally I put this down to the engines (rigs) being so well limited by the class rules as to be identical in all intents and purposes. Of course at these events we only had sails made by proper and highly regarded sailmakers. Glaser, Ashby and Landenberger. The Aussie Blade was carrying a more experimental sail and I don't really know where to place that for lack of other data.

Wouter





Wouter

The Viper at the 2008 GC only just started one race.

Not sensible to use it's performance from 2008


F16 - GBR 553 - SOLD

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Re: Interesting Info to Share [Re: scooby_simon] #152598
08/19/08 02:11 PM
08/19/08 02:11 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
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Scooby,

I wasn't refering to the Viper but the Aussie Blade.

Wouter


Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
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