>maybe a slug in the luff track<

On a TheMightyHobie18 & H20 the luff track is made of plastic, EXCEPT, it is substituted for an aluminum 6"-8" luff track at the top of the mast. It is that long to prevent the luff track from pulling out of the comptip, and the sail pulling out the the track?

So I am skeptical that a "slug in the luff track" will not damage the plastic luff track if the H17 is built the same way, or pull the plastic luff track out of the comptip?

Perhaps, you could substitute the plastic luff track with the alumimun luff track where the new head will be located?

The hobie 16 was originally reefable. The points were in the middle of the second panel from the bottom i think. Your plastic tip will make for real trouble reefing. Maybe you should just make a pigtail, flip the boat on the beach and lash the head to the mast so it won't pull out of the plastic track.
If you make a new mast, the supercat has a good locking system that will accomidate 2 halyard locks. the hook is at the base of the mast inside the luff groove. A second swage stop can easily be installed on the wire halyard.

yep

Hello,
Here is a photo of my Hobie 16 with reefed main. (We still pitchpoled in this configuration, but it was out first time sailing) The reef point is 44" lower than the normal spot.

Jack Hoying
Fort Loramie, Ohio
Prindle 18 #1645
http://www.bright.net/~jmhoying/sailing/prindle.htm

Good ideas -

Thinking of the Worrell on the Jav ,-small narrow bows and a 33 ft mast ,--downwind in large seas gusting to 30 ---
Help Mr. wizard !! ---{old cartoon }

Seen the 16 reef system ,-like others the tendancy to pull the larger sq top sail out seems much more likely ,-even with an added ceramic or extended length slug added.
Do have a Supercat 15 with the internal mast groove wire halyard , but replaced it with a masthead hook halyard per Supercat retrofit. --wire sail stretch problems ,--hook is a better system .
-The location of the ring Hook down lower sticking out would shread a sail in 30 plus .
Have you ever had the mast shake violently side to side in lesser conditions , the mast rotates from forces side to side ,-
power gybes ,--many other situations . It has to be very simple neat and clean to work like anything else in those conditions .
Funny how the guys with masthead flys ,-gadgets and dohickies like plastic clips for traps and added adjuster lines seem to have everything get blown off the boat in those conditions . --The more things I can take off a boat the better I like it .
The only thing I came up with is to knotch an inlet in the mast track at the reef level desired and reinforce the sides of the mast track with stainless steel with same cut out shape to accept the ring at the mainsail top . The difficulty is then getting inward pull on the interior halyard to pull the ring inward into the reinforced mast track cut-out.
Believe if the sail was lowered all the way ,-the halyard then crossed over and rehoisted the main it would provide suffecient pull in .--Either that or a small seperate halyard line set up to that location to pull the ring into the reinforced mast track groove that would hold the ring in place and in turn top of the larger mainsail .

Think some sailmakers are working on this type of reef system now and may have a better solution .
Proper reinforcing corners at reef points -downhaul and clew locations ,-attachment means and rolling up excess sail area are also very important aspects ,--particularly in 30 plus winds .--
If it is much more than that I,m headed for the beach this time around .

Do we know how to have fun ,--yeeehawww-
This thread probably has the other crazies that love to sail in these conditions .
have fun - sail safe -

I would go with a smaller cut sail for heavy air days.

Usually big air days are gusty and in gust you want the top of the sail to dump the power, I would bet that a reefed comptip wouldnt dump the gusts and the downhaul probably wont bend the mast and dump the power like you want it to...Plus all the above mentioned issues with holes in sails, and customized hook points. A smaller sail might be more expense in the short run, but you will make up for it how the boat performs and less frustration. Or you could hot knife a old sail or a used sail. Cheap and easy.. I used to reef my Dart on heavy air days and it never worked well, the bottom of the sail never stayed rolled up and it big air you dont want anything flogging.

I just used to sail with my fat girlfriend on heavy air days and my skinny girlfriend on light air days.

Bill

that the best idea i have heard.- have another sail with the same height but have the leech cut some percentage. so instead of reefing up and down, you reef across the width of the sail. , brilliant bvining , i am going to the classified section now!

Using a smaller sail is the answer if you know before leaving the beach. But it does not solve the problem if you have to reef your sail to get back from an island after a picnic lunch and the wind has picked up to an unmanageable level.

there is no h17 sail in the classified. i bet the performance of a leech cut sail will be quite different the a foot cut sail.

just a thought. i don't know about your boat, but what about instead of lowering the sail, raising the boom. i know the h16 had a floating boom.

I agree with Mary and think that you should have the ability to switch to a reefed main without having to return to your launch area to switch sails. Reinforcing the sail for a new downhaul and outhaul grommet isn't a problem, but can a reefed sail work on my Prindle 18 (all aluminum mast) when it is held up by the rope halyard alone. The other option would be to have a cable made ( and remember to bring it sailing with you) the same length as the reef, with a ring on one end to hook on the top of the mast and the other end fastened to the top of the sail. My concern with that would be getting it unhooked without having to put the boat on its side.
I've seen someone selling an aftermarket ring that has a place to attach a small diameter line that can be pulled from the tramp to unhook the ring from the top of the mast. Maybe this would work?
Here's a photo of a friends Nacra 5.8 with a reefed main.

Jack Hoying
Fort Loramie, Ohio
Prindle 18 #1645
http://www.bright.net/~jmhoying/sailing/prindle.htm

I have a system that can be done at sea, in high waves and heavy air. I configured it to use a lanyard and ring (I'll explain) and was successful in using it at sea. After more than one occasion of not being able to disengage the ring and douse the reefed sail, I modified the system. But first, the basics.

Why reef? Reefing accomplishes two main purposes. When your vessel has too much sail area you have too much drag. This drag can do a number of unbeneficial things such as slow you down or knock you around. Reducing sail area will reduce drag and therefore you should be able to go faster and have more control of your vessel.

Second, and probably foremost in our case, reefing lowers the sail and thereby reduces the amount of leverage that the sail has against the leverage of your body's weight. So reducing sail area by lowering the sail is the way to go since the primary reason we, as cat sailors need to reef is to keep from being capsized. Being slowed down or tossed around is not as bad as being capsized.

Mast bend is a result of the leech tension on the top of the mast. (The spreaders encourage the mast to bend in a certain direction.) When you lower your sail, you loose most of the power to bend the mast with the leech tension. If the head is lower than the shrouds, you will be pulling the wrong way on the mast. You do no want the reefed sail's head to be lower than the hound. When the mast bends, the portion above the hound comes back, the rest does not move aftward very much. Pulling back on a point below the hound can work against this movement.

When reefed, the head should not be lower than the hound. That way you may attain some mast bend when you sheet hard.

Since you will not have the same aftward leverage as when pulling from the mast top, do not expect as much mast bend and therefore as much flattening. When reefed, you have to live with a fuller draft.

To use a second hook on the mast does not seem like an option to me. I would expect it to stab through the sail when sailing under full hoist.

I made a lanyard of steel cable that would fit between the sail's head and the halyard end. The ring goes on top of the lanyard and bottom of the lanyard attaches to sail's head.

To reef, I would fully douse the sail, add in the lanyard cable, and re-hoist until hooked. This works wonderfully and allows you to once again bend the mast from the top, at least with the downhaul. If you have very high diamond wire tension with spreaders well raked, you can get some decent bend in the mast this way. However, the bending attained solely from leech tension is still limited.

This system has been used a few times on my boat. Twice at sea and twice from the beach. Bill Mattson and I used it to return from Santa Cruz Island, through 'Windy Lane" through winds in the 30-45 knot range. It saved us from being thrown violently over, several times, and allowed us to reduce the strain on a cripled rudder.

However, this system usually required me to tip the boat over to unhook it and I did not like that restriction. That would require me to capsize if I needed to completely douse at sea. So, I went the other route.

If you use the halyard to support the luff tension, you must have a non-stretchy halyard and a strong enough sheaf on top to handle the load. You also need a reliable way to cleat the halyard. First I'll tell you how I have dealt with it. How I intend to deal with it will follow. Then I'll tell you about managing the bottom of the sail. Finally I'll tell you about an even better system that I am not presently using.

I wanted to be able to reef without the fear of being able to douse, fully, later. I also wanted to be sure that the halyard would support the load. Also, the halyard would have to take some abrasion abuse where it would rub against the side of the hook plate.

I also wanted to be sure that the halyard block would support the load. And the bonus to this system is that I don't have to douse and re-hoist. I can do like the big boats and just "take in a reef."

To have a halyard that could manage the load and not do a lot of stretching, I use 1/8" Amsteel. To keep me from having to handle it, I splice on the 3/16" double braid that I usually was using. Many people use 1/4".

To strengthen my halyard sheaf, I dismantled the block and replaced the sheaf, which had nylon or delrin bearings in it, with a high load sheaf. The high load sheaf uses a fiber bushing bearing, not balls. And I believe the high load sheaf is made of aluminum rather than nylon. In my case, I think I just used a bronze sheaf from a wire block (block for wire rope).

Next, I had to make sure this block would not come off of the mast. My boat uses a cheek block for the halyard sheaf. It is mounted on a flat plate on the top of the mast. Instead of re-mounting it with 3/16" hollow rivets, I used #10 machine screws and nuts. Where the cheek block had a hollow rivet for the axle, I used another #10 bolt and continued it through the mast mounting area, making three total bolts to carry the load where two hollow rivets once did the job. I added a washer or two to take up the space between the raised portion of the cheek block and the mounting plate.

If your Prindle 18 is like the P16 that I have looked at, you have a pair of rather stout blocks up there that are on 1/4" axles. I'd feel quite confident with that set up but would probably use a stronger sheaf wheel material than the standard nylon.

To secure the halyard at the bottom, I tied a slip knot in it because I had not yet finished that part of the job. It worked find, but as you can imagine, was tough to get un-done. I think what I will do is to bolt on a small aluminum horn cleat to the luff groove. If all goes well, I will be able to exit the 3/16" halyard before it reaches the turning block at the base. Then I can cleat that on the horn cleat. If I can't seem to fish it out, I'll cleat it after it rounds the turning block.

At the tack of the sail I use a hook, fastened to my downhaul (cunningham) block. There is a new reinforcement patch with a new added cringle in it located at the right spot for attaching the cunningham when reefed. The leech of the sail has a reinforced patch on it with a cringle through which is passed a doubled section of 1" webbing. Each end of the webbing has a ring in it. One ring attaches to the outhaul car on the boom and the other ring just pulls on the cringle, tensioning the foot adn leech of the sail.

In line with the new cringles is a row of about three smaller chringles. These are used to take up the slack portion of the sail. Note: One must not bind this baggage to the boom for you would risk tearing your sail if the boom were to pull on these cringles.

You roll up the unused sail and pass a line through each cringle and and tie the line to iteslf. I use bungie cord. I have a piece that hangs in each hole, knoted on each side of the sial so as not to fall out. With the bungie, you simply, quickly tie a square knot and they are always easy to pull apart later.

Some here have spoke of a problem with a luff rope pulling from the track. I have not had this trouble. If I did I woudl ad a sail slug on the top of the luff. perhaps they have a compost tip or their luff rope is too small.

When I am reefed I try to take it easy on sheet tension. I know I can't flatten as much as I'd like to, so I just take it easy on the mainsheet and the downhaul too. I put up with more draft in the sail than is needed, but it saves my halyard, halyard sheaf, and I guess the luff rope as well.

Finally, you might want to take a look at a newly available system that uses a swage ball on wire rope. There is a swage ball on the halyard for each hoist position. (like the old Hobie 16 had) On top there is a cleat that releases the ball if you first lift it an inch. When you hoist, fully, you hear the first ball "click" and keep on going. As soon as you hear the second "click" you release and it holds. To take a reef, you hoist an inch or so and then the cleat passes the swage ball. After it has passed the second swage ball, you hoist 'till you hear a click and then you ease and it holds.

I remember seeing this system in a catalog, but can not presently find it. I think it was in the apsltd.com "hot new items" but does not seem to be there today.

Skip Elliot told me that he has been using it on the C-cats he has sailed on and that it works very well. Adapting this system to a sealed mast would likelly present some challenge.

GARY
Mystere 6.0, Pacific Ocean

Gary,
Thanks for all the ideas and photos. This is exactly the type of information I was looking for.
I appreciate your effort in answering the question.
Jack Hoying
Fort Loramie, Ohio
Prindle 18 #1645
http://www.bright.net/~jmhoying/sailing/prindle.htm

Carl-
You can get a small amount of "inward" pull or cant by placing a rubber wedge under the halyard ring ala the Taipans and Auscats-

Regards,
Kirt

March 2008, Catalina Island

photo attached

GARY

I don't think adding a second hook lower down on your comp-tip is a good plan. The rivets holding the top hook actually engage the aluminum mast head fitting which projects down inside the comp-tip. Your second hook will be riveted only to the fiberglass and will probably pull out leaving you with a weakened comp-tip.

The Hobie 21 SC, the one with that reefs, has another section of aluminum luff track extrusion (Just like the one at the top of the mast.) where the head of the sail will be when reefed.

John

HobieGary,

Thanks for bring this one back as I have been looking around at ways to do just that with my H 18. I appreciate the pointer to Bill M. who did a similar setup on his H 18.

Dan

I like to keep it simple, when possible.

I learned through my experience that reefing a beachcat sail leaves you with the inability to flatten that sail properly. Trying for perfect sail trim when reefed is wasted effort.

I now use this simple system for reefing:
Be sure that the halyard block and housing on the top of the mast is suitable for supporting the load of a hoisted sail that has some downhaul tension on it. Be sure that the halyard turning block at the bottom of the mast also can take the load.

Drop the sail to nearly its reefed position, leaving a couple of feet clearance for halyard stretch and sail luff stretch.

Tie off the halyard; I installed a small horn cleat on the outside of my kerf or luff groove. When I forgot that I had placed the cleat there, I just tied the halyard to the boom's gooseneck.

Attach the downhaul to the luff, reefing cringle.

Attach the outhaul to the reefing clew.

Sheet hard, travel out, and go sailing.

I crossed the Catalina Channel in this configuration, with the jib flying, a few weeks ago. Boat speeds reached 15 knots.

I have also been roller reefing my mylar jib when too much jib is bad and too little jib produces too much weather helm. I wouldn't do that with a dacron sail, but the mylar sails don't mind it at all.

Even a tiny corner of the jib's clew will offset much of the weather helm associated with the resultant CE, center of effort move aftward when sailing under main sail only.

I wouldn't hesitate to let out one foot of dacron sail, but I wouldnt' roller reef the jib to say 50% unless it was a mylar sandwich sail.

When sailing unirigged in high wind, there is a huge amount of weather helm due to the CE moving, the lack of flatness in the reefed sail, and the increased friction from the high wind. That tiny jib triangle up there, along with a severely eased main traveler can really save your trim balance.

GARY