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tornados tillers off the back??? #154850
09/11/08 08:33 AM
09/11/08 08:33 AM
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 757
japan
erice Offline OP
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erice  Offline OP
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japan
as decent video of the last cat racing in the olympics seems non-existent for most of us i went back to watch the most recent "best tornado video", the 2008 takapuna worlds, http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=qy4yZOgvL-Q, (make sure to click high resolution and full screen at the bottom right of the video)

i notice at 31sec、 2.21sec、3.08sec, 3.48sec, 4.27sec, 5.32sec、and 7.04sec that when going downwind on spinnaker that the crew? is as far aft on the wire as possible and the helm? on the tramp and steering with the rudder cross bar, the extension has just been bailed out behind the boat and is bouncing along in the wake

just a few noob guesses here but i suppose this means

1. that with the crew so far aft there really is nowhere else to put the rudder extension

2. that this is something only done when the wind is strong enough to support 1 hull up with both still 2 on the windward side of the boat

3. that tornados don't use extending tiller extensions, just fixed length carbon tubes

is that right???


eric e
1982 nacra 5.2 - 2158
2009 weta tri - 294
-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: tornados tillers off the back??? [Re: erice] #154851
09/11/08 09:11 AM
09/11/08 09:11 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Jake  Offline
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You are correct on all points. With the crew trapped out behind the skipper the tiller gets in the way and if the crew bumps it, it could mean instant capsize.


Jake Kohl
Re: tornados tillers off the back??? [Re: Jake] #154852
09/11/08 09:35 AM
09/11/08 09:35 AM
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,430
california
F-18 5150 Offline
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california
I've done the same on the f-18 a few times. By holding the corner of the tiller rudder conection you get really good feel and instant responce.


Richard Vilvens
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Fairfield, Ca
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Re: tornados tillers off the back??? [Re: Jake] #154853
09/11/08 09:36 AM
09/11/08 09:36 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,293
Long Beach, California
John Williams Offline
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John Williams  Offline
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Long Beach, California
Quote
...and if the crew bumps it, it could mean instant capsize.


As a duly designated member of the Crew Union, I can say that the crew never "bumps" the tiller extension. Some skippers have a tendency to smack and poke their crew with the tiller, however. This is generally presumed to be accidental. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />


John Williams

- The harder you practice, the luckier you get -
Gary Player, pro golfer

After watching Lionel Messi play, I realize I need to sail harder.
Re: tornados tillers off the back??? [Re: John Williams] #154854
09/11/08 09:47 AM
09/11/08 09:47 AM
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
waterbug_wpb Offline
Carpal Tunnel
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Naples, FL
Quote
Quote
...and if the crew bumps it, it could mean instant capsize.


As a duly designated member of the Crew Union, I can say that the crew never "bumps" the tiller extension. Some skippers have a tendency to smack and poke their crew with the tiller, however. This is generally presumed to be accidental. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />


I believe skippers refer to this as a "Gerk" (or "Gurk") designed to remind the crew to pay attention to the sails?

This technique appears especially effective when 'demonstrated' on certain sensitive areas of said cremember's anatomy.


Jay

Re: tornados tillers off the back??? [Re: John Williams] #154855
09/11/08 09:47 AM
09/11/08 09:47 AM

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In the "Skipper's Club" this is know to NOT be "generally presumed as accidental"

Re: tornados tillers off the back??? [Re: waterbug_wpb] #154856
09/11/08 09:51 AM
09/11/08 09:51 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,293
Long Beach, California
John Williams Offline
Carpal Tunnel
John Williams  Offline
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Long Beach, California
Quote
I believe skippers refer to this as a "Gerk" (or "Gurk") designed to remind the crew to pay attention to the sails?


It is, indeed, known as a Gurk. That is the sound the crew often makes when this "method" is employed. Crews do not appreciate getting gurked, and some skippers are forced to move to single-hand fleets once they are labeled by the Union as a gurker. Although I once knew an F17 driver who gurked himself.


John Williams

- The harder you practice, the luckier you get -
Gary Player, pro golfer

After watching Lionel Messi play, I realize I need to sail harder.
Re: tornados tillers off the back??? [Re: John Williams] #154857
09/11/08 10:55 AM
09/11/08 10:55 AM
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 4
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soggysailor Offline
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Actually most T sailors use telescoping tillers and you can use the tiller downwind if you want. However, there are couple of benefits to using the crossbar:
1) The skipper can plant his arm down and hold the rudders more steady against the waves.
2) By laying down the skipper can see better from under the main.

Re: tornados tillers off the back??? [Re: John Williams] #154858
09/11/08 11:11 AM
09/11/08 11:11 AM

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Quote
Although I once knew an F17 driver who gurked himself.


You can go blind doing that to much!

Re: tornados tillers off the back??? [Re: soggysailor] #154859
09/11/08 11:20 AM
09/11/08 11:20 AM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 1,200
Vancouver, BC
Tornado Offline
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Tornado  Offline
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Vancouver, BC
With the crew that far aft, the tiller is clear of the crew generally, but a good reason to toss the extension is to avoid the crew from breaking it in multiple pieces when he slips and bangs against the hull.
Most, but not all teams use the Marstrom telescoping tiller...runs over $500 USD before shipping. Nice, light, very fragile.

When mine was broken into 3 sections, I replaced with an 8' A-cat carbon extention.


Another technique I see T helms use is to place the extension on top of the shoulder and grasp it from below. Have only tried it once or twice but could not get used to the weird feel. I leave it under my arm & tuck it under my armpit whe I need a second hand...I find I can steer a little just by leaning my upper body in or out.

Mike.


Mike Dobbs
Tornado CAN 99 "Full Tilt"
Re: tornados tillers off the back??? [Re: Tornado] #154860
09/11/08 11:32 AM
09/11/08 11:32 AM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 4,451
West coast of Norway
Rolf_Nilsen Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Rolf_Nilsen  Offline
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West coast of Norway
Going downwind in big wind on the T, the stick is more in the way than an aid in my experience. Steering by the connector arm positions you exactly where you should be as well.

Re: tornados tillers off the back??? [Re: Tornado] #154861
09/11/08 05:43 PM
09/11/08 05:43 PM

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Quote

Another technique I see T helms use is to place the extension on top of the shoulder and grasp it from below. Have only tried it once or twice but could not get used to the weird feel. Mike.


Practice and perfect this technique. Using the tiller overhand means you hinge at the elbow, underhand you have to use the shoulder. Hinging at the elbow is far more accurate and uses less energy.

On my last two boats (A cat and Tiger) I was able to rest the tiller on my shoulder to sheet with both hands. Unless your helm is way out of wack there should be enough friction against your shoulder to keep the boat going straight.

Re: tornados tillers off the back??? [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #154862
09/11/08 06:07 PM
09/11/08 06:07 PM
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 951
Brisbane, Queensland, Australi...
ncik Offline
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ncik  Offline
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And you've got something very convenient and strong to hold onto when you stuff the bows.

Re: tornados tillers off the back??? [Re: ncik] #154863
09/11/08 08:02 PM
09/11/08 08:02 PM
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 757
japan
erice Offline OP
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erice  Offline OP
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japan
after initially trapping with he extension underhand i've now swapped to doing it overhand and resting it on my shoulder when sitting on the hull, it does seem more comfortable but you need a well fitting pfd

when first doing it and wearing my old loose fitting lifejacket, that rodes up, a couple of times when i came in off the wire and thought i was resting the extension on my shoulder it had actually threaded itself through the arm opening of the pfd and i hadn't noticed

until i trid to scoot under the boom and found i couldn't swing the extension behind the traveller

made for an interesting few secs as i fumbled around putting the boat into wind to take the jacket off and unthread it.

pic attached shows how close extension end is to shoulder opening when out on the wire and overhanding it

Attached Files
157719-overhand.jpg (87 downloads)

eric e
1982 nacra 5.2 - 2158
2009 weta tri - 294
Re: tornados tillers off the back??? [Re: ncik] #154864
09/11/08 08:47 PM
09/11/08 08:47 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 733
Home is where the harness is.....
Will_R Offline
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Will_R  Offline
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Home is where the harness is.....
Quote
And you've got something very convenient and strong to hold onto when you stuff the bows.


I'd be scared to pull too hard on those carbon marstrom tiller arms.

In the case of a stuff, I know a couple of UPPER end skippers who basically wedge themselves in by putting their forward hand into the lacing just in front of them.

Re: tornados tillers off the back??? [Re: Will_R] #154865
09/11/08 09:49 PM
09/11/08 09:49 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Jake  Offline
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South Carolina
Quote

In the case of a stuff, I know a couple of UPPER end skippers who basically wedge themselves in by putting their forward hand into the lacing just in front of them.


Hey! I do that! Does that mean I'm UPPER?


Jake Kohl
Re: tornados tillers off the back??? [Re: erice] #154866
09/13/08 02:32 AM
09/13/08 02:32 AM
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 1,147
Bay of Islands, NZ
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warbird Offline
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Bay of Islands, NZ
That is fabulous, athletic, fast, beautiful stuff.
I enjoy skiffs but they are so over engineered and complicated in comparison.
As long as the Olympics omit cats, they are out of date and second best.
It is very sad to think the T would be gone as it represents the fastest beach type sailing of the last 40 years and it is still a classic thing of rare beauty.
I was watching a little video of the big tri the other day and the same thing raised it's head. Why would you bother trying to drag all of that bulb through the water when you just don't have to?

I am left with a strong line of thought which is "thank God my neighbour wanted to get rid of his PT all those years ago".

Re: tornados tillers off the back??? [Re: Jake] #154867
09/13/08 02:21 PM
09/13/08 02:21 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 733
Home is where the harness is.....
Will_R Offline
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Will_R  Offline
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Posts: 733
Home is where the harness is.....
Quote
Hey! I do that! Does that mean I'm UPPER?


Nope, you just emmulate greatness!! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />


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