As you likely know, there is a lot of controversy over the PN number for the F16 in the U.S. I personally agree that it is too high, but not sure what to do about it. We just had a 20-mile race here on the Chesapeake Bay, in which I sailed my F16 against 6 Nacra 20s and corrected more that 6 minutes ahead.
I asked Mark Schneider about this and he sent me the following note:

"I actually scored you with the F18 rating for my own interest because this is what the Euro's use. You win the hammond race by 1 minute 4 secs... a lot different then the 6 minute spanking if we use the current F16 nuimber."

Is this really what all the Europeans use — the F18 number? Is there more information about this anywhere on line? What is the consensus of North American and European sailors regarding the F16 number?
Thanks,
John

Well, I don't have an F16 yet, but I'm working on it and have done a lot of reading and listening. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Yes, the Europeans do rate the F18 and the F16's together, well at least they rank the F16's faster than the US. And there is some consensus among(from what I hear from other people) that the F16 rating and (Nacra F17 rating for that matter) are too slow.

This can only be resolved by turning in numbers from races that have been ran with portsmouth numbers; however, those numbers have not typically been turned in. From what I understand, it's kind of a pain in the butt to turn these numbers in, so they don't do it. ???

Those numbers only account in US sailing courses, like buoy racing. So, in your situation with a distance race, it wouldn't have counted anyway.

Basically, you have to encourage the race committee to turn in the numbers after the races.

At least that's what I understand. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Please correct me if I'm wrong. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />


Mike

All handicap systems will fail under the scrutiny of a post race debate around the campfire keg. Distance races are even worse as the direction typicaly is slanted away form a ballanced upwind/downwind situation as found in bouy racing.

The US system takes this even further into BS as it is based on results, so as long as there are a lot of recreational sailors on a particular brand, or no one sails them at all the number will be slanted away from its theoretical potential.

If we are to run handicap in the US I would push to switch to one of the systems being used in Europe now. Not only are they based off of a more theoretical calculation, the numbers of people racing in Europe are significantly greater and the relative validity can be judged a lot closer. The calculation system also allows for a much fairer adjustment for non standard set ups. For example now, an addition of a spin to a boat is a single number no matter if I put an F16 spin or one of the Smyth Worrell 6.0 spins on my boat.

As of now, just get some more fast guys sailing the F16 or just enjoy the number. If they bitch tell them to use a different system. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

In Europe we use the schrs scoring systems (schrs.com).
The F16 is calculated a little slower then the F18 but only a few seconds on an hour.

If I compare to equal crews (in experience) on our club, I think the number is about right. Only in heavy seas it is difficult to beat them because I still need to learn how to spin in these conditions....

Gill

The different ratings for F16 around the world can be found on the F16 website.

Link to the SCHRS ratings

You will notice there are mutiple ratings for the A class as the A class rules do NOT control all items that we use within SCHRS, thus each A class needs to be measured to get a rating.

lower number is faster.

But introduce a 505, fireball or skiffy into the race and you are again using Portsmouth.

But you can use SCHRS to map Cats back into PY.

For example if you have some boats in the US fleet that you trust the PY for; you plug this boat(or boats) into the SCHRS model and get a rating. You then plug the boat you are trying to handicap in PY into the SCHRS model and this ALSO gives a rating. You can then calc the delta between the boats in SCHRS and then apply this delta to the boat you have in PY and this gives a new PY; now this method will assume that both boats (the one you trust in PY and the new boat) have the same crew skills. But it does give you a good (IMO) place to start.

If you have more boats, you can get the deltas to other classes and you might well get a good PY for the new boat.

HOWEVER you must consider that SCHRS does not rate the skills of the crew (and PY does) and so you need to take into account the skills of the sailors. Thus you might choose to make the handicap slightly slower(easier to make time on) than SCHRS suggests when sailing within PY.

How to Fix the USPN system

One:
Problem:


Only use the caclulated PN number AFTER A CLASS HOLDS a Nationals with 10 boats in attendance for two years.

TWO


Agree, this would be the base number in the USPN table an obtained by mapping the rating as Scooby suggests.

THREE
It would be adjusted based on performance data so long as the class continues to hold a national championship (pertains to all racing classes required to meet this standard). The PN could change only after the class reaches the status of a viable racing class.

These changes supplement the principles of the USPN



Since the changes every year are small... getting the rating correct in the begining is vital... Starting with SCHRS or Texel solves this problem.

Requiring the class to hold a natinoals for two years assures that the sailors are actively racing their boats...
the sailors are closer to the USPN Standard.

In Europe both the SCHRS and Texel measurement handicap systems are used.

The differences in seconds per hour of windward-leeward racing compared to an F18 (2-up) are :


Texel :

1-up : 0 seconds
2-up : 36 second slower


SCHRS :

1-up : 82 seconds faster
2-up : 11 seconds slower


VYC (australia)

both 1-up/2-up : 51 seconds slower


USPN :

both 1-up/2-up : 162 seconds slower


Personally, I think the SCHRS 1-up rating is off and the USPN rating is way off. The other are very close to what is real.

Sailing of the F18 rating is actually one of the most fair things to do in a mixed fleet; it is also the most fun as you need to fight for your placing.

Both my current skipper and myself (when I race 1-up) are content with the Texel ratings for both versions. We are pretty much level around the course with crews of comparable skills; we are most certainly not 161 sec slower then them as the USPN predicts.

The USPN should be below 63.8 to be near to the Texel, SCHRS and VYC systems, but 63.0 will be most realistic in comparison to the USPN F18 rating. Sadly there are other issues in that getting the F16 rating right in relation to the F18's will make the errors in relation to other boats bigger.

Wouter

I almost forgot !

Congratulations with your excellent result !

Well done.

P.S. Take a look at F16's doing really well on elapsed time as well :

http://wrcraorg.ntitemp.com/racerslt.html#SummerFall

Wouter

Hate to say it... but
I am sick of this conversation. Let the number be. Why should we be the only class that is altruistic enough to always bring it up. I don't see anyone else running around trying to change their number.
The system will change the number with time, and as Matt said, the system doesn't work very well anyway. Look at the 18HT... the number is as fast (used to be .3 difference) with a N20. That might have been the case a long time ago but it isn't anymore... and although the number is coming up it will probably be 10 years before it is something "fair."

nothing against you jackmac... but I see some sailors bragging about winning all the time based on corrected times due to a BS high DPN and I have never seen them (him) say anything about changing their (his) number.

Wow, I'm just checking back in with less than 24 hours gone by. Thanks for all of the good input! Here're few more of my thoughts on this.


I should have mentioned in my original post that this "distance race" actually was entirely up wind and down wind, with maybe 55-60% of it being downwind. I should also note that I've raced against the six Nacra 20s on my own Nacra 20 (actually, a friend's) for several years and I'd say most of us are pretty much on the same level of skill and experience.


The point here is that it is a shallow victory when most of your competitors feel like they don't have a chance to win before the competition even starts or they don't even consider you a competitor because of your "NUMBER." I feel much more satisfied with my effort when I know I competing on a level playing field.



This further illustrates my point. This is the club to which I belong and compete every Tuesday night. There are typically 4 F16s and a half-dozen or so Nacra 20s and 3-4 Acats every week. With rare exception, the F16 take the top 3 spots. We have some great competition among the F16s, as do the N20s and As among themselves, but Series trophies seem to be attainable only by F16s. Our scorer has run the numbers using the F18 PN for a few of the races and it shows that there were very little differences in the results—and I'm sure that results would change for some races.
I’m sure this will take a long time to run it’s course. But for me the bottom line is, based on all the feedback from all you European sailors who have much more experience with the F16/F18, and our local number crunchers, Mark Schneider and Keith Chapman, I think 63.0 may be a good competitive number for us F16 sailors and I will suggest that to the other competitors in our club. And I suppose I have the right to enter whatever PN number I choose as long as it’s at lease as low as the existing F16 number, when I enter any other open class events.

Thanks again for all of your thoughts on this,
John

John,




Your fellow club member Constantine Serementis has already performed this feat in the past. So the precedent has already been set and it shouldn't be to hard to get a similar adjustment accepted a second time.

In the end of the day, this is also better for yourself, to force yourself to fight harder for the wins !

Best of luck !

Wouter

Wouter,

I already have to fight pretty darn hard with fellow F16ers, Constantine and Ed Mills (Lucky Duck), but I get your point.

Incidentally, thank you for your earlier expression of congratulation. That rarely happens—I suppose because I sail an F16, and everyone knows that the F16 has an unfair advantage. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Did you know the F16 number is just right and everyone elses is F'd up <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

This is one reason why I always look at the elapsed time results for the US races; you have done very well on elapsed time as well and that is major achievement against US I-20's. But also as you say, even when scored against the F18 number you got out on top.

As a result I think personal congratulations are very much in order.

Wouter

John,
I've sailed at a club for more than 20yrs where we would have a handicap for each boat based on past results. These handicaps would be adjusted to, in theory , have each boat finish the race at the same time. As you improved your handicap would be adjusted so you had to continue to improve to win and the winner is the most improve that race.
Once a month we would have a championship race to be a part of the club championship series that would determine the best sailor in the club over the year. The club championship would be calculated not on the particular boat/crew handicap but on the VYC, a system similar to used in the US and no one is ever happy with the numbers in such a system.

The local individual boat/crew handicapping system provided the most enjoyable racing, especially when we handicapped the starts.

Regards,
Phill

John (and all)-
A little history on the F16 PN might be useful to understanding the current situation, and since I got the F16 ball rolling here I guess I get to tell the story. Once upon a time, here in the US, about 9 years ago, I got a small 16 foot boat from a galaxy far, far below ours (Australia) after racing against Auscat A's and ground crewing for Team Taipan in the last "open boat" Worrell 1000 race. That little boat, Taipan 4.9 #159, which I wanted to race here, needed a US PN number. When a new boat is imported/built one has to apply to the USSA for a provisionary PN and I did so through Darline Hobock- a wonderfully patient USSA volunteer. The assignment of these provisional PN's is necessarily somewhat arbitrary- apparently if requested by a manufacturer for instance it was my understanding they just told the PN committee what they thought was a good number and unless it seemed way off base that was what was assigned. For the Taipan, which at that time was just beginning to sneak out of Aus, I really had no idea of it's potential but luckily they were quite widely sailed in Aus by the likes of Greg Goodall, Glen Ashby, etc. and Aus had a handicap system in place with a number for the Taipan 4.9 uni and sloop (which were NOT identical BTW). Remember, this was before Phill, Wouter and I dreamed up the F16 so there was no spinnaker involved at that time. Using the Tornado as a standard reference between the Aus VYC and US DPN Darline calculated the original provisional number for the Taipan 4.9 uni and sloop (which were different since the VYC numbers were different). The Taipan numbers grew very slowly in the US until a few of us "nuts" started insisting on putting spinnakers on the boats and came up with the F16HP rules. My first spinnaker Greg sold me for my Taipan was a very full 21 sqm!! Greg wanted to go with that size since the Texel rule gave the same "hit" for a spi up to that size! In the U.S. the spi modification number was simply added to the Taipan 4.9 uni and sloop number. We were using tramp spi bags back in those days too and starting to experiment with snuffers (I still have my first beautiful Guck CF snuffer from the days when it was the "secret weapon" in the Tornado class!). In those days the only US F16's were Taipan 4.9's and a single BIM 16. It's important to realize those boats are only 4.9m long, only slightly wider than an A cat, had a mainsail with a very small "square" head and "old" style spis. These are the boats that originally "developed" the current PN - and it kept dropping every year for quite a few years for both the "regular" Taipans and the F16's. The current Blades/Stealths/Vipers etc. are all built "to the rule" and so are longer, wider, taller (able to handle more power) with bigger head mainsails, self-tacker jibs, snuffers, higher aspect boards, better spinnakers, etc. The current F16's have simply evolved faster than the PN has been able to adapt. I can tell you just the difference in mainsails from the current crop in the A class to what I got as the "hot" sail 7 years was immediately noticeable on my 2001 Flyer. Can only imagine what a new "big head" main will do for my Taipan!

Hope this was helpful