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No feedback about the Caliente documentary? #15602
01/21/03 02:22 PM
01/21/03 02:22 PM
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 273
Key Largo, FL
MaryAWells Offline OP
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MaryAWells  Offline OP
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Key Largo, FL
If you watched the documentary on the Weather Channel Monday night about the capsize of the Caliente in the Chicago-Mackinac Race, what did you think of the documentary in general, and what did you think about mistakes that may have been made on that boat and ways to prevent them in the future?

Three things that registered with me immediately were:
Sailing at night but had to look for flashlights?
Sailing at night but did not have life jackets on and had to find them and put them on at the last minute?
Had a hard time finding the "Calamity kit" that had the E-pirb and other stuff for this kind of emergency?

And it did not help the reputation of multihulls when one crew member said he knew when he signed on for the race that multihulls are not as "stable" as monohulls.



Mary A. Wells
-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: No feedback about the Caliente documentary? [Re: MaryAWells] #15603
01/21/03 02:51 PM
01/21/03 02:51 PM
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 148
Charleston SC
h17windbtch6333 Offline
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h17windbtch6333  Offline
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Posts: 148
Charleston SC
I watched it at a bar 'cause i dont have cable at home, but the barkeep wouldnt turn the volume up (espn had 'NFL this week' or something on). same situation with all the louis vuitton series. if its not on a field or court and there is no ball or some object to wack around, most people dont consider it a sport. sailing goes beyond man vs. man: man vs. man(woman included) vs. sea, as Caliente made a point of.

Re: No feedback about the Caliente documentary? [Re: MaryAWells] #15604
01/21/03 03:03 PM
01/21/03 03:03 PM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 397
Burlington, Vermont USA
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Kevin Rose Offline
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Burlington, Vermont USA
Bummer. I missed it. Anyone know if there are plans to repeat the show?


Kevin Rose N6.0na #215 Lake Champlain (New England's "west coast") Burlington, Vermont
Re: No feedback about the Caliente documentary? [Re: MaryAWells] #15605
01/21/03 03:56 PM
01/21/03 03:56 PM

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Mary,

I caught part of the show and I agree that they did seem to be lacking in general saftey procedures. And I definately flinched at that guys comment about the stability of Multi's! I thought that it was odd that the crew said that they were reefing the main when the storm hit and that the first gust shredded the main. Then they said that the boat started to go over after that. Go over under just the Jib? I was dissapointed that the explanation of what happened was so brief. But all in all, a pretty interesting show and as a former Lake Michigan sailor, I can attest to the fury of the first blast of some of those thunderstorms!

As to the question regarding the next showing, I am pasting an email that was up on the F-boat list-server.

The Weather Channel is doing a show about the Capsize of Caliente on
the
> Mac. There are interviews of the crew, the rescuers and I believe
> reenactment of the rescue.
>
> The Race to Mackinac show airs: Monday,
> Jan 20th at 8pm Eastern/7pm Central with a repeat airing 2/17/03 at
8pm
> Eastern/7pm Central on the Weather Channel.

Drew

Re: No feedback about the Caliente documentary? [Re: ] #15606
01/22/03 09:56 AM
01/22/03 09:56 AM
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 277
Baton Rouge, LA
Dean Offline
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Baton Rouge, LA
I didn't see the program but from what I read back when it happened I believe,

1: They waited way too long to reef after having observed some imminent heavy weather
2: Safety plans and safety equipment at-the-ready didn't seem to be a priority.
3. They were very lucky that a nearby highly skilled ship captain could manage his behemoth in shallow water and could remain on station until a rescue could be managed. Those Great Lakes merchant mariners must be some of the best.

Re: No feedback about the Caliente documentary? [Re: Dean] #15607
01/22/03 11:26 AM
01/22/03 11:26 AM
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 273
Key Largo, FL
MaryAWells Offline OP
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MaryAWells  Offline OP
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Key Largo, FL
Yeah, in the documentary they showed the freighter as being way off in the distance and did not really talk much about the role the freighter played in the rescue. The stories from the participants at the time said the freighter was quite close and lit up the scene with floodlights.


Mary A. Wells
Re: No feedback about the Caliente documentary? [Re: MaryAWells] #15608
01/22/03 04:00 PM
01/22/03 04:00 PM
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 805
Gainesville, FL 32607 USA
dacarls Offline
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dacarls  Offline
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Gainesville, FL 32607 USA
I have sailed in and stood on the shore of Lake Michigan in these downburst-containing fronts aplenty, and agree with Dean. These fronts ain't anything to mess with- the 70 mph blasts mentioned probably were just that. The interviews mentioned that the Caliente crew on watch did not pay attention to the weather but were watching the freighter off in the other direction. I think they had early opportunity to come about to reef, but failed to do it in time. Remember when Playstation got its main wrapped around its shrouds off Long Island at night? Same scary deal. Great White was capsized with its chute up at night in Lake Huron in just such a situation, and sadly, its experienced 2 person crew were not rescuable by anyone near.


Dacarls:
A-class USA 196, USA 21, H18, H16
"Nothing that's any good works by itself. You got to make the damn thing work"- Thomas Edison
Re: No feedback about the Caliente documentary? [Re: MaryAWells] #15609
01/25/03 10:53 PM
01/25/03 10:53 PM
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 192
WEST. MICH. USA
DVL Offline
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Posts: 192
WEST. MICH. USA
Mary, I was aboard the Caliente last summer just before her first race, the Queens Cup. I was crewing on a F-24 at the time. Caliente hadn't made it to her home port of Chicago yet. The owner & Trey were still installing some electronics and other last minute items.

I have been across Lake MI (east to west) at least 24 times on monohulls & Tris 24' to 68', never had the chance to do the Chicago to Mac. On all the boats I have been on, before dark all crew members are to wear life jackets with strobes & whistles, (Skippers rules). Harnesses are optional. Winter coats & hats in June are not uncommon at night on the lake. Hypothermia is a big factor on the lake. Lake MI gets just as bad or worst than any ocean for wave height and steepness. Storms can be sudden and winds can gust to 70 MPH and sustain at 30+.

Wear your lifejacket
Look at the horizon for any weather
Reef early
Survival (Mustang)suits are ideal (@ $500 - $800)

They should be thankful they were on a Tri, Upside down it is a very stable platform. (A Monohull would be on the bottom of the lake ). At the height the boat was when upside down it was better than any life raft which is required gear for the Chicago to Mac Race.

Re: No feedback about the Caliente documentary? [Re: DVL] #15610
01/26/03 06:59 AM
01/26/03 06:59 AM
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 5,558
Key Largo, FL & Put-in-Bay, OH...
Mary Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Mary  Offline
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Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 5,558
Key Largo, FL & Put-in-Bay, OH...
It constantly amazes me that sailors on big boats do not wear life jackets ALL the time, and it is even more amazing that in this case they were not wearing them at night.

The Great Lakes are much more treacherous than the ocean because storms can develop so quickly and sneak up behind you when you aren't looking. They are not necessarily in the long-term weather forecast. Anyone who has spent much time sailing on those lakes has had the experience of rounding a mark and seeing a gray wall of wind coming at them, right now, in the 70-mph range.

At night you cannot always see a storm coming, but you for sure oughta always expect the unexpected on the Great Lakes.

Re: No feedback about the Caliente documentary? [Re: Mary] #15611
01/27/03 01:15 AM
01/27/03 01:15 AM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 953
Western Australia
Stewart Offline
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Stewart  Offline
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Western Australia
Im Au this race would be a Cat 4 offshore race..
Each crew has a personal epirb as well as one for the boat.. each crew has a personal offshore jackets incorporating inflatable vest and must b worn at all times when on deck.. Life lines are to be used (generally twin so at least one is clipped on when moving).. At night lights are to be kept by each crew on watch.. Automatic life rafts to the new standards are manditory as well..

The rule is you have one life.. sail safe.. These safety rules should b used by monos and cats..

Re: No feedback about the Caliente documentary? [Re: ] #15612
01/27/03 05:27 AM
01/27/03 05:27 AM
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 612
Cape Town, South Africa
Steve_Kwiksilver Offline
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Cape Town, South Africa
"I thought that it was odd that the crew said that they were reefing the main when the storm hit and that
the first gust shredded the main. Then they said that the boat started to go over after that. Go over under just the Jib?"

A similar incident happened in South Africa last year, at the Vaal Dam (Inland waters, not coastal.)
2 Dragonfly trimarans were out sailing under full rig in about 25 knots when the wind started to gust eratically, the skipper of the boat that didn`t capsize reported gusts of up to 40 knots.
As the wind started building, the mainsail on one boat tore in half across the middle, from leech to luff. The crew then took the main down while still sailing under full genoa. The next gust powered up the genoa and drove the nose of the boat off the wind, since there was no main up to balance the force in the genoa.
Before the crew had time to react, the genoa had driven the boat off the wind, powered up & capsized the boat.

So if the trimaran in the incident you describe was experiencing 70mph gusts, this may very well be what happened to them, even under a stormjib, with no main up they could have experienced the same difficulty.

Regarding safety procedures that they did or did not follow, isn`t hindsight a wonderful thing ? It takes out the potential for anything to go wrong.
They may have been in control & relaxed one minute, next thing they`re upside-down, wondering where all the emergency gear is.
Sure, all the precautions should, or could, have been taken, but how often do we all sail without all the necessary safety precautions, for example :
I have a set of flares, but seldom sail with them since I sail on inland waters. I once hit a submerged log about 10 miles from home base. If my boat had been holed, it would have been a long swim back to shore & a long walk home, if I was lucky.

Re: No feedback about the Caliente documentary? [Re: Steve_Kwiksilver] #15613
01/27/03 05:19 PM
01/27/03 05:19 PM

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Steve,

Thanks for the explination of how one would go over under just the jib. I had not thought about how the boat would swerve downwind once the main is down. I would guess that you might get a good wall of water forming on the leward side of the bow's that would also help the boat to trip over itself.

And I agree completely about the saftey issue often being a case of hindsight. Once I was out sailing in Lake Michigan in my 470 in late May. The winter had been cold so the water temps were low. My crew and I were both wearing wetsuits, but he had borrowed his from me and we are very different body types. To make a long story short, we capsized and he got very cold, VERY quickly. We would have been in real trouble if we had not been able to right the boat quickly. We thought that we were being safe with a wetsuit, but we had not bothered to think about the thickness/fit of the wetsuit versus the actual water temperature.

One does not always dress like one is in the Southern Ocean, or carry as much saftey gear. An interesting question is how do you decide what is the minimal amount of precautions that you should take for any given sailing situation? I will always wear a life jacket, but when do you need flares on your boat? On that inland lake with 10 knots of wind?

Thoughts?

Drew

Re: No feedback about the Caliente documentary? [Re: ] #15614
01/29/03 10:34 AM
01/29/03 10:34 AM
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 612
Cape Town, South Africa
Steve_Kwiksilver Offline
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Cape Town, South Africa
Hi Drew,

Safety precautions / equipment should be directly proportional to the conditions which you believe you may encounter during your day`s sailing (assuming you are a day sailor on a beach cat.)
I`ve done a 4 day adventure trip on a beach cat, with tent, clothes, food, water etc for the whole trip stored on the tramp. This, in hindsight (there it is again) proved a bit difficult on the last day when we were hit by a 40 knot squall when an approaching thunderstorm swallowed us.
SInce all the gear was lashed to the tramp, I feared capsizing since I figured we may not right the boat after the storm with the weight of the kit. I had not considered this as a problem, until it became one. We rode the storm out pointed head-to -wind with sails flogging & lightning conductor
pointed at the sky - I would rather have been upside-down for the duration of the storm, but had not left that option open to myself. The safety equipment we had was very basic - obviously life-jackets worn all the time, 2 cell-phones in a waterproof box, flares, spare line, spare shackles & 2 paddles.
After the storm we came across a keelboat which had run aground & went to their assistance - we did not need to phone NSRI but it was comforting to know we were in a position to do so if anyone was injured.

If you intend to sail outside of the view of your club, perhaps a long-distance sail on your lake/dam/open sea, best to have someone on land know your intended time of arrival back at the beach - Our club`s rescue officer goes looking for someone who hasn`t returned about an hour after dark - problem is an upside-down cat is hard to find after dark on a dam with a 900kn shoreline, the open ocean is going to be impossible.
A while back one of our club`s best sailors went to fetch a Tornado from another club, intending to sail it across to our club for a race the following day.
He should have arrived by about 7:30pm, at 9pm we sent out rescue. The NSRI (South Africa`s National Sea Rescue Institute) boat joined the search at about 10pm.
They found him upside-down at about 2am, skipper & crew were in shorts & t-shirt, no lifejackets, no safety equipment ie flares etc. Luckily it was summer & they were cold but alive.
On the open sea that same incident would have been a newspaper article about 2 guys who drowned.
This doesn`t mean we can relax about safety on lakes or dams - rescue operations on Vanderkloof dam (looking for people on motorboats who have run out of fuel or got lost) have taken up to 5 days.

I would reccommend the following rough guidelines:
-If you sail up & down in front of your club, lifejackets should be all you need. Flares would be optional. A paddle is also a good item to have.
- If you intend on going off out of sight of your club, make flares mandatory, add drinking water. A paddle becomes a must have. A cellphone is optional & might help in an emergency.
- If you go on a 4 day trek, notify someone of your route & where you intend to be each night, as well as return date. Keep in touch via cell-phone as
much as possible, maybe have a report in time each day to a buddy at your club. If you`re camping on the shore each night, take a snake-bit kit for snakes
that are common to that area (I live in Africa, this may not apply elsewhere.) Also, take enough provisions for 5 days if you plan to be gone for 4.

I`m sure there are many guys who know more about safety than myself, these are just my ideas.
The problem with taking the safety equipment along for the situation which you think you might encounter, is that you may very easily encounter another situation for which you had not planned.
If you sail solo & capsize, your flares are no good to you if they`re in a trampoline pocket & you lose touch with the boat. This has happened to me, and you can`t swim as fast as your boat can drift using it`s trampoline as a sail.
Also, know how to operate the flares properly before you leave the shore - reading the instruction leaflet should not be done when you are floating around with a gash in your forehead & you can`t see your crewmember. If you take them along & don`t know how to use them you are likely to shoot a hole in your hand or something.
This applies to all safety equipment & procedures - have a "what if" discussion with your crew once in a while, so that they know what to do if you get separated from the boat & they are drifting with it, but can`t right it & get back to you by themselves. (Also happened to me.) I`ts easy - they just have to turtle the boat, you can then swim & catch up to it since it will slow down a lot. This may not be apparent to them at the time, so a safety briefing before a sail is a good idea, especially if you are sailing with new crew.

I take part in paragliding, a while back we had a discussion as to whether it is a good idea to carry flares on a cross-country flight, bearing in mind we fly over forested areas where you may set the forest alight by discharging a flare. A heated debate ensued, until a few weeks later a pilot crashed in an inaccessible place. He was rescued the following day, spent the whole night sleeping in his chute with a broken leg - His comment "wish I`d had flares".

Hope this helps.

Steve


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