Sailing to an upwind finish line two boats on starboard tack have overstood the finish line and are now sailing slightly low of -high and tight- to lay the line, windward boat is overlapped on leeward boat.

Does the leeward boat have to allow the windward boat in at the finish line or can he sail higher and take him above the layline to the finish line?

Is it considered like rounding a mark, where the "outside" boat (leeward boat in this case) has to give room for the inside boat?

My understanding (with no research yet) is at the finish line, the leeward boat does -not- have to allow an overstood windward boat "room" to finish, and can take him up above the finish line. True or no?

Oh, I gave him room, because he's a nice guy and his crew is cute and I drink beer with him too... <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

But for future reference, what is the correct answer? Thanks.

I think you have to give him room, unless you go above the mark with him.

Pete is correct.

Anything outside the ends of the finish line is to be considered as an obstruction and you cannot prevent an overlapped boat on the same tack from finishing.
If you do, he can protest and will probably win.
You did the right thing. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Stephen

Open water outside the finish line is considered an obstruction? I thought it was like at the start, where a boat barging in has no rights to room.

Guess I'll go get my rules book and look it up.

How much Overlap ???

Lets use the example that the leeward boat is "bow ahead"

First, the leeward boat is allowed to "luff up" the windward boat .... BUT must do it in such a manor as to allow the windward boat the opportunity to keep clear.

Secondly, the commitee boat is a "OBSTRUCTION" and you can not luff the windward boat into the commitee boat, the windward boat must be able to manuver clear of the commitee boat (just like a start and a "Barging" competitor)

Therefore, the leeward boat must luff up the windward boat before the commitee boat and then bear off ... and (most importantly) the overlapp must be broken at this point.

If there is still an overlapp at the point at which the windward boat can not manuver clear of the commitee boat you MUST allow them room to clear the commitee boat

I would have gently luffed up maybe 50yds out ... and then footed off just before stalling ...

This is a "I want to win", legal manuver

Note: If my friend is a "newbie" sailor, I would let them be .... if they are a "experienced champion" ...COMING UP, COMING UP!!!!!

Of course if the crew is that cute and your friend is buying the beverages ......

Sail Flat, Sail Fast, Sail Safe .....
Harry Murphey
TheMightyHobie18/#9458,Fleet54/Div11
P19MX/#86, CRAC

Dude, read the book. 18.1.a is pretty clear about the only time you can peal someone off.

can't luff someone- ie force them head to wind at any time during the race.... only prior to the start. you can't do it AFTER the start. "luffing" doesn't apply to the case timbo is talking about.
I need to look it up too, but I think you can force the windward boat to the corner of the line and force them to slow and duck you. The mark is considered as surrounded by navigable water so it is not an obstruction. I would have done what timbo did- let him in (because I am not into pissing people off like some others).

I'm digging through it now, looking for "finishing" instead of starting, because I think there is a difference. And the committee boat was on the left end of the finish line, we were passing the ball on the right end of the line, so there was no boat as an obstruction, just a ball. We had both overstood and he moreso than I, so I had had to come down even further to allow him room at the ball, or did I? Could I have held my higher line to the finish ball and kept him above it? That is the question. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

I wouldn't necessarily call this clear regarding a finish line given the oddities of some of the rules:In rule 18, room is room for an inside boat to round or pass between an
outside boat and a mark or obstruction, including room to tack or gybe
when either is a normal part of the manoeuvre.
18.1 When This Rule Applies
Rule 18 applies when boats are about to round or pass a mark they are
required to leave on the same side, or an obstruction on the same side,
until they have passed it. However, it does not apply
(a) at a starting mark surrounded by navigable water or at its anchor
line from the time the boats are approaching them to start until
they have passed them,

So I would interpret this as you CAN force them above the line... you are also not sailing above your proper course if you do it because you are still sailing on a path to get you to the line in the least distance possible (heading any higher than the finish would be sailing above your "proper course"

Personally, I'd sail for the line (my proper course) and the guy above me will either have to get in ahead of me or slow down and duck in behind me. I'm not about to make it easy for him. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Yes, that was what I had originally thought, but I have been digging in the book, and can find nothing regarding finishing, so I will have to assume the finish line ball is considered a "mark" that has to be passed on the same side and using that logic and rule 18 a leeward boat must bear off and allow an overlapped windward boat into the finish line.

Yes you can take the above the line but you can't peal. Isn't that the question here? Can I peal someone off at the finish? The answer is clearly NO!

YES! That is correct.

Dave, I cannot find the words "peel someone off" in the rule book, could you please elaborate. To me that means force them head to wind like a good hard luff just before the start. I'm talking about having to bear off my "proper course" to allow him room to finish.

Yes, you "COULD have done that, and you would have lost the protest if he had chosen to file.

I won that very protest.(one of only two protest hearings I have been required to attend as a skipper in the past 8 years)

It happened at a NAC event.

The Jury Foreman was an internationally qualified judge that was sitting on a jury boat at the finish line and watched the situation develop and play out.

Stephen

Peal = Not giving room at a mark. In a sentence: "Who from GYC is going to be at the WildCat to help me peal Ding off at the start?"

I can see you're still not convinced, and all I can say is peal someone off at the finish and let us know how it works out for you.

Here is the exact quote you are referring to I believe, no "peal" word in there, as I'm not sure of the meaning, I am sure of the intent however so I'll give you a pass there. Kind of hard to stuff someone into the committee boat when it's not there though, which was my original question in this thread.

From another thread, "Come on you GYC guys, are you coming over to Eustis this weekend or no? Todd? Seth? Steph? Matt and I could really use some help smacking down those F18's, with their "We are sooo superior" attitudes! You know we will all be on the same starting line so you can stuff them into the committee boat if you want! Don't make me do it alone."

To be fair, there is no "stuff" referrence in the rule book either! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Does the other boat have to ask for room? I may have screwed myself out of a couple of positions not asking for room once. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> (inside joke, sorta)

Well, he did ask for room and I did give it to him, then on the drive home I started wondering if I had to or not. Good discussion and something to think about for the future anyway.

LOL, Okay Wouter you got me.