OK, its time for a new thread on Good Sportsmanship in Racing. This includes, by my personal definition, being responsible enough to pay for damage to another sailor's boat when one is responsible. I am now owed for two material damage boat repairs (holes) by racers who attend events regularly, like they were both there last weekend at Tradewinds. Not a penny has appeared, despite exchanged addresses and what I thought were promises to do so.

So, this problem is appearing to grow. In speaking to the I-20 victim at Neptunes last weekend...who was sitting still before the start on port. An A-cat some distance away was bumped or disturbed by another boat...while distracted (and yelling) and paying attention to that perpetrator, said A-cat took off on starboard--whango-- T-bones into the inside of the port hull 6 feet back from the bow. Result was a 12 inch puncture. This A-cat owner seemed not to feel responsible.

NOW- who pays?

Very sadly, I see a current problem of poor sportsmanship being exhibited at otherwise excellent venues attended by active Florida sailors. This is a third example, if the A-cat guy doesn't own up and pay up.
For a fourth, my former crew was racing his Hobie 18M on starboard at Davis Island, when, 150 meters up from the C mark, a Hobie 20 continued on port in front of the 18M despite hailing, resulting in both bows of the 18M being crunched. This offending sailor now aims a I20, and I guess, thinks the event described above was a big joke.
A fifth recent episode is posted today on 1DesignNet.

What the hey is going on here?
What happened to good sportsmanship? In its apparent absence, is public trashing of offenders now necessary?
Where and when- on the net? Just before regattas, by loud announcements in public?
Calling their parents?
Small claims court? Jeez!
I want to have a good time doing this sport.
I hit someone once- 5 years ago at Tradewinds- and paid up, since it was my fault.

Comments welcome.
Dave Carlson

Dave,

Since a foul on the race course was committed, wouldn't the proper 'legal' (and I use that term loosely) procedure be to protest the offending sailor and get a RC judgement to attest to fault? That judgement would go a long way to get re-imbursement for the damage. I don't remember any of the aforementioned events ending with a ruling from a protest committee.

Over here, if an incident happens in the pre-start or during a race, the result of a protest is taken as law.
I remember at a Dart 18 Nationals in Scotland, one of the Irish sailors had two incidents. Immediately after the protest hearings the repair costs were estimated and cheques were written - no arguments.

Hi

This becomes an insurance matter only (Sadly from personal experience)

The protest committe judgement is not binding on the insurance companies. The paperwork that you and the other boat submit at the protest serves to document the two sides of the story (at that time). The absolute judgements of port/starbord collisions made by a protest committe have nothing to due with shared liablity.

If your company agrees that you were not at all at fault.. they pay for your damage (minus the deductable) and then sue the other guy or his insurance carrier. It becomes their problem to get their money.

I believe that is why most regattas require liability insurance for all competitors. (Would you serve on a protest committe if your judgment determined the fate of someone's injury)

The insurance companies agree on the relative fault and settle the claim. I think its just like auto insurance which uses the police report to determine facts.

The sportsmanship issue is entirely seperate though. Not my fault sounds pretty lame.

Stay warm
Mark

I am glad this topic was brought up. When I was younger our local fleet was much bigger and it was normal for Divisionals to pull 50-60 boats. When I was 15 I crewed for a great guy on his H18mag. Unfortunately when it came to racing, he was a real d!ck and numberous times ran up the back of H16's that day.

As I grew older, I grew less interested in racing because of people like this. I just do not understand what ramming another boat proves. I view it as a lack of respect for racers and for the race committee, not to mention a major saftey issue. I have also seen "A" fleet sailors scream and carry on at "B" and "C" fleet sailors for no reason. It got so bad 2 years ago that after the first day, all the C fleeters banded together and refused to race the final day.

Lack of respect on the water for other people and their boats is my biggest pet peeve with sailing. It is the helmsman's duty to avoid boat contact at all cost whether they have right of way or not. Saftey & Respect are the golden rules on the water.

The last time I ran a committee boat I tried something new. During the skippers meeting I made it clear that if a boat hits another boat, both boats are DQ'ed, no exceptions and will be reported to the Saftey Patrol. I think they got the drift after 2 boats were DQ'ed and escorted in by the cops after the first race.

I also tend to agree with Mark. In a serious event, supposing personal injury, should the responsibility of determining fault be bestowed upon the RC? That's a pretty heavy weight...where does the line lie?

At the yacht club where our boat is you must have insurance and show the correct documents every year.
I am not sure but I think it is a similar thing on most of the events.
I do not see the problem when I cause some damage my insurance will pay for the repair not only the damage I have caused but also for my boat.

Well, Dave, you've exposed my secret the reason I don't sail with my class very often. Unfortunately, I'm not alone on this one.

When I attended my boat's "Nationals" for the first time it was an eye opener. I assumed the skippers on the line would have known the basic starting and racing rules but my maneuvering before the start consisted, too much of the time, of staying out of the way of too many skippers who apparently had no idea who had the right of way and were simply milling around waiting for a flag to drop. They weren't simply bluffing . They just didn't have a clue. Barging, port-starboard, touching; it all seemed to happen with rampant abandon before the start. With literally knife-edge sharp aluminum T-foils that can slice polyethylene hulls like butter (the Rave), it makes you think twice about getting too close to those bozos out for a Sunday drive. I felt like I was in a parking lot with the drunk homeless driving grocery carts. I'm a terrible racer but I know the rules; both the old ones and the new, revised ones.

Worse, around the course, I saw three boats touch the buoys during rounding and not one skipper bothered to voluntarily do a penalty turn. One "Nationals" of this class was enough for me.

So, (1)one cannot assume the rules will have been given a glance by all starters and (2) you probably cannot assume damage incurred will be followed through in a gentlemanly manner. I don't know what the answer is there unless the R.C. forces some kind of responsibility. I don't know how they could do anything binding. That's two reasons distance racing seems appealing to me: there's more room to stay out of the way of the ignorant or the indecisive and you can actually GO SOMEHWERE outside the circle along the race with less chance of tangling with the asleep-at-the-wheel.

Sportsmanship has nothing to do with it. It's the same as backing into a parked car in the parking lot, and doing the right thing.

Excuse me for being so naïve, but why don't you turn it all over to your insurance agent? - Including the information of the boat that hit you. If you were only arguing over damage that was either equal to or less than your insurance deductible, then it may make sense to settle up between the two of you, but any major damage, well, that should be up to your insurance agents. That's why you have it. They can deal with the other guy while your boat is repaired, and you sail on your merry way.

If anyone is out there sailing around and racing without insurance, you're nuts, and you had better keep a look out for Mr. Murphy and his law. I see him all the time. (i.e. if it can happen, it will happen) Boat damage is one thing, but God forbid somebody gets hurt. How do you settle up then? Enter the lawyers. If you don't have insurance, you'd better rethink it. For $20-$25 a month, a lot of potential problems can be eliminated.

Don

This thread reminds me of this photo I found once on the net. I don't know any details, but it looks like a classic "T-Bone" accident.

Jack

Pardon me and the suggestions about insurance taking care of everything --This IS a good sportsmanship issue. If a skipper is at fault causing a foul and material damage, it is his (or in my case, her) PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY to not just blow it off. And what is just as bad, exchanging addresses then failing to cover one's obligated promise. The RC is NOT responsible for this, nor is any protest committee. So- has care for one's reputation and/or good name gone away from catamaran sailing because of..American TV, WWF Wrestling and Rap? At least a few posters seem agree with me...Thank you! Signed Dave Carlson

DAve,

The answer is VERY simple for someone who doesn't pay for what they broke. Next time out on the course make sure you are on staboard and who ever owes you money is on port. Just don't forget to move forward just before impact so the tops of the bows are "aimed" down.

This is a very good thread and points out one of the main reasons why more people don't race - there are just too many jerks who race.

Steve.

Hey Dave-

I see your point and have had to chase down uninsured sailors/thieves before. Thats what they are is thieves. They cause everyone else's premiums to go up to cover their selfishness. The key is to not allow a person like that to control your life or your sailing. Simply put some people could care less about honor or dignity or being a stand up person.

fair winds,
thom

You know its funny, with as much money as we spend on our boats throughout the year for maintenance and updates, why not spend another $150 in the event that an accident happens and protect yourself and your boat. Now I'm not excusing the jerks out there who think that they can barge at the start line or rub "A" mark and the outside boat on a tight rounding and not do cirlces, but I think if its an accident, a miscommunication between skipper and crew, or something to that effect then insurance can take care of it. If its unsportsmanlike, other sailors know and see what's going on and most of the time wont let it happen again.
Leah

Well, I hope that my incident wasn't the only reason for this thread, but we were the I-20 boat out there that managed to suffer some damage to the hull. For those that weren't privy to the front row seats (like Team Tybee), here's our synopsis:

1) Race day (Saturday) conditions were breezy (about 15+), cold and overcast

2) RC had Postponement flag flying. No races for the day had started

3) Our boat was approx 1/3 - 1/2 mile to the left of the start line, waiting in irons.

4) A-cat appeared to our right, approx 20 meters, bearing away on starboard tack, allegedly after a minor collision with another boat.

5) At the time of the collision, our boat was backing up in irons. Other boat was on starboard. Hulls interlocked. A-cat shroud sawed into I-20 snuffer head (damage extent unknown). A Cat port hull dove underneath I-20 port hull, and shroud began sawing I-20 hull under waterline. I-20 crew pushed A-cat hulls away, and A-cat sailed away on starboard with broken port (forward) shroud.

6)Team Alexander's was able to assist A-cat with shroud repair. I-20 sailed back to beach on port to minimize water intake, and commenced repairs. A-cat also sailed into beach, replaced shroud and returned to racing. Incident caused A-cat to DNC two of 6 total races that weekend. I-20 DNC all 8.

To me, there was no basis for RC or protest committee to have to pass judgement. There was no racing going on, we were not on the race course, etc. Just a bunch of boats milling around. Upon seeing A-cat on beach, we apologized for being involved in the crash (NOT for being at fault, mind you), and offered our assistance.

To his credit, A-cat sailor did apologize for the incident on Sunday afternoon as he left for Key West Race week.

Had this incident resulted in more than just a lost weekend of sailing (and about $100 in epoxy, glass, and gelcoat), we probably would have raised this issue to insurance. I would be interested in reading how others would have handled the situation (ASIDE from not sitting in irons!) in a more sportsmanlike manner.

If you were sitting in irons and parked are you not an obstruction? Did the A cat not have to keep clear since he was under way? Even if you were on starboard it sounds like the A cat would of still hit you.