this would be perfect considering that the "alternative supplier" that I heard is also foreign-made. I believe our masts are 32' long.

Jack, you see this!?!?!!

That's BS. There was no real arms race with the N6.0 and the P19 until they were no longer making class at regatta's

What is the advantage of following the Nacra Factory class rules?

The 6.0 class tried to remain viable with the NE spinaker and snuffer package but were not supported by the factory and the class died.

History does not support a US breakaway from the Nacra Factory Rules.

(no matter how much logical support you can muster)

I'm pretty sure that the N20's appearance contributed to the N6.0's decline.

I could be wrong.

I agree, the "shiny-itis" of the N20, as well as it's improved design (with a spinnaker included) may have contributed to the 6.0 decline.

I loved the N20 and will eventually consider another (once crew and time commitments clear up), as I like medium distance 'point to point' racing as well as w/l can racing, and this platform shows the best ability to handle those diverse assignments in a variety of wind/water states.

SMOD vs. one-design vs. box rule? Not sure where the answer lies, but if a domestic supplier can provide parts at a fraction of an international supplier, it would seem to be a good business decision on the manufacturer's part to develop a rapport with various suppliers (in the countries the platform is sold) to develop sources... I thought that's what licensing was all about?

Not so sure about switching to aluminum masts, but if they're as "idot tolerant" as the current carbon ones, I guess that'd be okay...

And if we're to switch masts (from carbon to aluminum), why not consider a wing-shape rather than teardrop? Might as well upgrade if major changes are going to happen anyway...


Would there be any validity in a North American F20 class, using the specs of the N20 with larger sailplan? I know Eurpoe's weather conditions warrant a somewhat smaller mainsail, but if the N20 design is easily convertable between the two F20 classes by switching mainsail, it might help strengthen demand...

If you think that a NACRA 20 is pricey then look at the Melges 20. Same length & draws 4'6", 2 feet less beam & carbon stick=$50,000.


And there is a waiting list.

Jack

Yes, the N20 was the hot new boat at the time... but the N6.0 class thought that adding a spin would keep the class going. They met with a lot of resistance from the factory which had a buisness plan which included 6.0 sailors upgrading to N20's.

The 6.0 with spin was never included in the Performance nationals and the independent Nacra 6.0 with spin class never really got going.

My point is that unless the N20 sailors want to step up and run their own class (rules, measurment NA's) ... the premium they pay is for Performance to host their nationals and provide dealers and take care of all of these issues.

The F18 sailors took this organization task on and they just hosted a very succesful NA's.....

Hmm..

When people talk about parts, etc for their boats and factory support I often wonder what parts, specifically need to be obtained from them. In SMOD classes, I believe all the parts need to be obtained from them. I think there are very few parts that are very unique to a boat that can't be sourced elsewhere, especially with the internet. Most hardware on these boats are produced by other manufacturers anyway (do you think Performance makes the track? Makes the blocks, lines, spin pole, hoop, sock?). The factory cuts the pole yes, maybe drills a few holes here and there, but with the exception of beams, masts, hulls, then there is very little that absolutely needs to be obtained from the original manufacturer.

I know you are making a short statement about a long topic - but that's not exactly how F18 happened in the US. It rode into the US from European leadership was VERY manufacturer / dealer supported initially (in the US) which was a cause for some ruckus when the US rules were modified from the European ones that appeared to favor a particular brand. The class matured enough from there that leadership grew within that aligned it with the European rule and we have today a great class. It very likely would not have started without the manufacturer/dealer involvement that kick started things initially.

Your absolutely right,but my guess is PC would bury the class before they made it competitive w/ the Infusion. they are Euro based now and that's(F-18) a euro based class.

Mark,
As usual your wrong. Tad's right on, the Inter killed the 6.0. So you can't even compare this situation to that, because there is not a better 20' being released.It's the only show in town and the one of the best distance racers ever.It makes no sense to me to try and squash it or let it die. Us big boys need a boat for the lighter North American winds.Apparently it's more than the Euro folks can or want to handle in the heavier winds they have, i.e. the migration to F-18.
Todd

p.s. Jack won't even return my calls anymore.

*cough* *cough*

That wasn't a slam ( it's pretty obvious when I do that), just explaining my take on smaller sails and platform that Europeans seem to prefer, otherwise why wouldn't a longer boat with more sail area be prefered. We had to add sail area.
Rolf,
Do you or any other Europeans(besides Wouter) have some insight into why the F-20 class collapsed over there?
Todd

Hiya Todd,

no worries, as our australian friends would say.
There are boats with plenty sail area here as well. I dont think that is it. It might be true that the coast of Europe see more wind than the coastlines of the USA, I would not know. Would be interesting to compare statistics though!

Why did the F20 concept not take off? I dont know for sure. Having several versions of the I20 probably did not help but I dont think that was the main reason. Timing, factory support and not getting the right people into the class I would hazard. Class management of any startup class is vitally important in my opinion. Having a bad exchange rate can also hurt, as you no doubt are aware of. I sure hope others who paid more attention at the time also chime in on why the F20 did not catch on big time here.
A small side note. I have the impression that you in the US are much more focused on class racing than we are over here. Mixed racing/handicap is not uncommon, so the F20/I20 would typically race Tornados, F18s, Hobies, one-offs and all other types of boats.

Class racing here does seem to be the norm for the upper eschelon sailors. I sail mostly distance races so I'm used to handicap racing. Don't always agree with it, but used to it.
What's the hot 20 footer(besides the tornado) over there?
Todd

There are no "hot" 20 footers class wise that I know of. There are the White 20s, M20s, Extreme20s.. No dominant 20 footers except for the Tornados, and since the Tornado lost olympic status I think it will become increasingly rare (unless there is a great change in class management and rules). I absolutely think there is room for a 20 footer or several.

I was really disappointed when the iF20 started to dwindle in Europe.
As Jake said, F18 was pushed fowards by manufacturers that developed the right boats to go head to head and even some guys making them in their own sheds.
iF20 became doninated by the inter20 [Not many variants either Rolf] and the other boats that were about were not developed to beat them. the yank habit of tinkering with the rigs to suit themselves did not help either!
There were a lot of F18 guys that were just too big for their boats at the time and we tried to get them to step up to the iF20. When they sailed the inter20 they said that it just felt too easy to sail and not fiery enough!
despite its many knockers, F18 is rightfully the dominant class and it WORKS - you won't see any F16 or F20 boats winning any big races on handicap.
There is only room for one formula class and F18 is it!
The 20 footers best chance is if it sticks to an absolute one design and the F18 gets too pricey to keep competitive [olympic involvement?] making the 20 affordable top level racing.

Paul

As a partner in a N20, an owner of an Infusion and an old H20, I would like to express a few thoughts.
The N20 is a dream to sail and is a great boat for 2 man teams. If you have ever sailed one you will agree.
If you look at the recent results from the F18s, the heavier teams were not at the very top of the standings.
The N20 class is not dead. We had 6 on the line at Key Sailing a week ago. In fact, in the Florida Panhandle, there are more N20s than anything else. There a very few F18s.
I've heard that the price of carbon is coming down and the dollar has strengthened 30% in the last month. I expect that we will see the price of the carbon masts returning to a reasonable level. I love the carbon mast and I would hate to see NACRA go to an aluminum mast that requires two sets of spreaders. The infusion mast is quite heavy.
In summary, each boat has its place. The N20 is great for 2 good size guys, the F18 is for a lower weight range (two smaller guys or a man and a woman) and the F16 is for small teams or for single handers.

In talking to one of the top Infusion teams(who used to sail I-20s) ,they told me the mast was 10 pounds heavier. I'd have to take the $1,000 dollar a pound option if I broke mine. Aluminum is not the way I'd want to go either ,but having that option would be nice, instead of a parked I-20 with a broken mast because I can't/won't pay $11,000 for "that" mast. For that much money it could be lighter and stronger. Look at Hall and Marstrom's.
My sailing falls under the 2 good sized guys category apparently, because me and most of my regular crew would be wayyyy to heavy to be competitive on any F-18.
Todd

Team VMG
"When they sailed the inter20 they said that it just felt too easy to sail and not fiery enough!
despite its many knockers, F18 is rightfully the dominant class and it WORKS - you won't see any F16 or F20 boats winning any big races on handicap.
There is only room for one formula class and F18 is it!"

All opinion.
If stuffing bows and pitchpoling is fiery than I'll stick with my "Easy" boat as long as I can afford to.

20s and 16s both regularly beat F-18s on handicap here.You think any of that has to do with the number? Nahh, not that.It goes both ways.
Todd
P.s.Didn't mean to hi-jack, I'm done with the pissing match defending the boat. F-16 and F-18 are the best thing since sliced bread and condom machines. Now can we get on with what this thread was about.
I'd still like to see some input from I-20 owners on their thoughts.

What weight do you sail at? 400lbs? Just curous what you consider too heavy for the 18 and 16 but good for the I20.