http://forums.sailinganarchy.com/index.php?s=&showtopic=80544&view=findpost&p=1940893

I don't know if this guy has any idea what he's talking about. I figured we'd hear about it here first if it was indeed true or even rumored.

we already did hear it first here and saw a cartoon-esque drawing about two months ago.

Well...that is of a new Hobie F18 coming out of France but not anything about the Olympics. It would be a stretch for the F18 to both put itself in and for the ISAF to put an open development class in the Olympics.

http://www.hcana.hobieclass.com/?page=7923&format=

the cartoon-esque drawing was of one of the three boats, the Pearl. No drawings of the "new" F18

Oh ok I'm an uninformed **** :P

Thanks

Yes it's more likely the OD Tiger would be selected over a Formula boat.

the new f-18 from hobie is hopefully going to debut at the paris boat show in december. All new platform the only carry over from the Tiger will be the front and rear cross beams. there are currently rumored two sets of hulls in testing with the old rig. new sail plan and mast aren't finallized. but a wing mast is said to be in the works. Will we see this in the U.S.?

taken from the hobie thread
Guys, just for your information, I´m still in Europe and two weeks ago, I raced with Mitch Booth in Hyères and had the chance to discussed the new F18 with Mitch and other guys from the factory since Mitch is really involve in the development.
Around 2 to 4 sets of hulls are already produced and final testing is planned to be by the beginning of November. Famous F18 sailors invited to test the boat: Mitch Booth, Darren Bundock, Gleen Ashby, J-C Mourniac. I was not allowed to see the boat but Mitch's son saw it and he said to me: this is the sickest Hobie cat ever, really modern. I know that they were still working on the mast and sail plan. Only the front and rear beams will remain the same as the Tiger, the rest is totally new. Mitch mentionned that the hull shape of the infusion and the capricorn was a step further than the Tiger and the new Hobie F18 will be the step further than the nacra/capricorn.
Guys, let me tell you that with everything I've heard: Its gonna be a sick and fast boat.
A new casting with a new blade, carbon daggerboard. New Mast. A clean platform and many new innovations. Its gonna be a really modern high performance F18 Hobie Cat.

Whoever wrote that needs to go into marketting.

That's because he's a Hobie dealer!

the new bow
http://www.hobiecat.com/community/viewtopic.php?p=58400#58400

I think they call that clinker built!

It looks like a character in a Circ de Soleil show.

I think those things are handles so you can carry it around the beach. It does look like a mask...Halloween anyone?

I was hoping it would be a bit wider so it could carry lots of weight (Infusion style). I think we need to make sure we open this class up to the maximum number of teams.

The punisher.

If the new boat is faster, then it's P number has to be -adjusted- for open class racing, right?

Tim, you know the drill. If the evidence supports your position the number will be adjusted.

Dave, it's not my possition, it's the builders who are making the new F18's faster and faster, otherwise you would all be racing a 1996 Tiger, right?

And I'm not saying, I'm just saying, "Evolution" should be taught in school...

And I have no idea how P number get -adjusted- anyway, does that latest F18 NA's, where the top boats were all Caps. and Infusions count in anyway? Or is only one boat vs. another, different class boat, finish times that get put in the mix?

If Matt invents a new F16 design and it is clearly faster than all the other Blades, when Matt is sailing it, will anyone ask that number to be -adjusted- too? Of couse they would. That's all I'm saying.

built in anti pitch pole devices? or vent holes to reduce drag?

Bottle top openers?

hmmmmmm

Evidence provided to the DPN committee by regatta organizers.

Open class racing
Wind factors must be used
Only buoy racing, traditional upwind downwind with possibly a reach. The USSailing course card is your guide.

Again, if the evidence supports your claim that F18 has become faster over time then the number will be adjusted.

The only role I see the NAF18 Championship results and any championship for that matter is to show who is your top guns are in each class.

If I were on the DPN committee, I would look at the championship results to determine the top guns. Look at the results at the Alter Cup Championships and see how the skippers measured up, this is about the only place where the top guns in range of classes race each other straight up. Finally I would review all the open class results with maybe a little extra attention paid to the area qualifier which I would then use to calculate an adjustment if the evidence supported it.

There was an interesting interview with Bouwe Bekking over at the Daily Sail (subscriber section).
They talked about the design and how the software which was develop during the AC and mainly applies to displacement hulls where no longer relevant.
Ironically the new design software was borrowed from what the powerboat designers use, and thats where they got the idea to put "spray stoppers" on the bow.
http://bp2.blogger.com/_U6Cp5x-Sbr8/SGjEvRiX_RI/AAAAAAAAD-w/n2TDvpqjzkw/s1600-h/DSC_2792_1.jpg

See, this is why I think there should be an exact distance measured for the course and it should be easy now that we all have hand-held GPS available.

If every "NA's" course were a measured mile (or 1.5, or what ever, but all exactly the same) from A to C, you could easily make a valid comarison from boat type to boat type, given the exact wind speed and the time it takes each boat type to get from C to A and A to C, use that as some type of a rating system, voila, you have a better system, and you don't even have to be racing open class to do it. Just measure the distance and time at each NA's, where the best skippers are sailing their own boats. The Alter Cup is a bit skewed because if the "team" isn't right for the boat (too heavy, too light, etc), or new to that type of boat, or whatever, their times will be signifigantly slower than when the same team sails their own boat.

These guys were way ahead of the curve...

Looks like a couple of prototypes I saw about 2 years ago in various yards.

You know what, I'm done with this. I hate handicap racing and I hate talking about it even more. If you really believe in your system make it happen. If you don't want to put any more effort into creating a better system than hammering on a keyboard then it really wasn't all that good of an idea.

Ding out!

If the boats are being sailed more upright (canting keels etc.) then the whole design, particularly the hull, is affected. No wonder spray rails and chine are becoming popular.

Halloween F18

The portsmouth number gets adjusted when the regatta organizers send in their handicap racing results from their open classes that were scored on Portsmouth. These relationships to other boats finish positions are considered in a database and the first place finishers contribute to the handicap rating and a small (very) small adjustment would happen from one or two race results. Enter 12 race results and the numbers get more refined. If regatta people don't send any results then the portsmouth group has to guess at where the numbers are.

As it relates to F18, the tiger is the ONLY F18 platform that has it's own rating. This is because the Hobie Tiger class rules have differentiated from F18 rules - mostly in the crew weight area. They race under a different rule set and get a different rating. All other F18's race under the F18 rating. If one of the other F18 boats proves to be faster than the others, it will be a minor improvement in speed (as history has proven) - and the rating system will self adjust fast enough to accommodate this shift for the class' potential.

Yeah, but there are a lot of other variables that go into boat speed that you haven't yet measured; wave height, wave direction, wave period, amount of chop, amount of boat traffic/wake, wind speed, wind direction, peak wind gusts, period of wind shifts, range of wind shifts, .... there are way too many variables to try and calculate a performance based system without the boats sharing the same racing time on the same racing water.

Don't forget tides too. Wind shifts are actually the thing that separates boats. Some boats sail a shorter course to A mark. Some boats sail in more wind on their way to A mark by sailing smarter.

Mike Hill
N20 #1005

so what happens if this proposed hull shape is actually faster by a small, but noticable margin? Everyone runs out to buy the new boat? Is that what they refer to in other threads about "arms race"?

This could be a good thing. If the difference is small enough, it only matters to the best, most competitive sailors. Then they'll run out and buy a new boat and sell their older but still great boat to a less competitive sailor at a discount.

It's the trickle-down theory of class building.

Oh yeah! I forget tide and current and since the current can vary all over the course depending on the water depth....

we have a few years to worry about this atleast in the states hobie usa may wait to import them.

New designs are always faster, it works like this.....

Say you have a three year old "Design X", you've raced it pretty hard and done well. Then you test sail a brand new "Design Y" and discover it is stiffer, faster and more responsive than your current boat, therefor it must be better so you sell your boat and buy the new one.

The truth is 90% of the 2% difference is that you're comparing 3 year old gear with brand new stuff. Test sail a brand new "Design X" (identical to your current boat) and you'll probably find the same difference.

One thing most F18 sailors will tell you is all the boats (including the older designs) can have their day, More than anything else the new hobie is a marketing and fashion exercise because after 12 years the Tiger is falling out of fashion.

Well said!

Not sure if this was posted on catsailor before but this is the 2nd picture:

It must be fast because that's Gaud-awful ugly... Looks like a native warrior mask...

That some sort of spray deflection "chine"?

(I donno what to call it, I know its not a chine)

looks like a inverted anti-pitchpole foil
Is it just the angle of the pic or is the hull asymetric?

I have a guess... but it's a SWAG

That "lip" causes air to be sucked into the water flowing next to the hull, similar to a stepped hull on a power boat. Decreases resistance.

Now, if not that... maybe it's just to deflect spray a little.

It's too high up for that though...and it's indented the wrong way to be an anti-pitchpole feature. I can't figure out what the idea is behind that.

Yeah, i was thinking the same thing too b/c a step would be 90 degrees to what it is on this hull... but got to thinking a/b the way water flows over these hulls. It's not just a fore/aft flow but there is a lot of flow vertically in that area of the hull. Unless Hobie tells us, this is all guess work anyway.

the lip looks to be bigger on top than bottom. thats what made me think of the pitchpole foils.
like it will create a lifting force on the bow if driven down. maybe we will see at the paris boat show when its unveiled.

It's like the deck lip on a Hobie 16 - a spray deflector.


I really can't see where that's going to be any faster.

Just a spray rail. Look where it fairs back into the hull. The Mk1 hawk had a problem with the spray from this area flowing over the rounded deck and hitting the main beam making the leeward hull a very wet area for the crew.

Cheshirecatman

OK, I can see that. I can really feel that water washing over the deck and hitting the front beam on the I20 and it drives me nuts. Nacra solved that on the Infusion by making the top forward deck relatively flush with the main beam. They wouldn't stop a pitchpole but maybe you can get a little lift out of it with those chines (or whatever you would call them).

I can't see the angle or additional buoyancy of the rails doing anything for pitchpole resistance, even in a modest bow down attitude. However, look at the low down hull buoyancy.

Cheshirecatman

It's not like this is a new concept, although the implementation is different.

Shark Catamaran (check out the spray deflector on the bow):


If you look closely at these Cougar catamarans, you can see the same spray deflector (this is from 1965):

I thought it was a handle for lifting the boat on the beach

Putting sponsor stickers on the bow will be a real pain with those spraythingies getting in the way.

You can add:
Hellcat and other early c-class
Manta
Thai
Shearwater
Dolphin
Yachting World Cat

and I am sure many others. All 40+ years old.

Cheshirecatman

My guess is the slots will be attached to tubes that vent out the stern. They will produce a rooster tail. That will bring in the powerboat crowd that can no longer pay for gas.

Double Super Secret bow design.

It could also be to add stiffness locally, or just styling.

Gareth

DING! DING! DING! We have a winner!

Its a pretty pretty that you don't have . My boat has them yours don't. Now you have to get one. Love the f-18 class.

ahh... consider it character building to forgo the pretty pretty and just try to win with the basics!

But... if the contest is limited just to the bar after the race... Pretty Pretty has enormous rhetorical value and you should absolutely go for it.

Now curved banana boards in the A class that is a story yet to be told... so it could be worse!

Spray rails on the Cougar were a total failure...

The Shark was my first boat and they all had them. I was Class Sec. for year and lobbied heavily against them.
Spray Rail was the name of them, and they lived up to their name. They sprayed water everywhere and really got you wet.
One Class Pres. who was for keeping them said they helped keep the boat from pitchpoling. But if, you look at the angle of the Spray Rail, it actually would help a pitchpole once the boat drove under that far.

Also, that spray that was constantly flying off them was a lot of drag.
Today's Sharks are all Spray Rail free.
Rick

Since anything on the hull that is not smooth is going to increase drag, why would to do something to stiffen the hull externally when you could do it w/o the penalty internally?

I think that he meant the winning answer was just styling (he highlighted that part in bold)

Aren't they all wet there? Man, I was foredeck on myown boat at Sakonnet 100, for 10 miles downwind with Spi, and skip wanted to sail deep, so I was on the leward hull. It's wet down there. Needed scuba equipment!

When conditions are extreme yes, otherwise some are much worse than others. This is where some of the older boats were much more crew friendly. Where the forward section of the hulls flared out towards a flat(ish) deck level the spray from the bow would (mostly) be deflected to leeward and many main beams were set flush with forward deck level. This way the water didn't 'explode' when hitting the front beam on deck.
I know some will argue that these older flat deck designs were sometimes not as pitchpole resistant, but if the crew can see what they are doing it is less likely to happen in the first place!
Do I think think the lip/rail will do much on the Hobie (If it actually appears on the boat)? - No. What it has done is get people talking about a 'new Hobie F18'

Cheshirecatman

Not a long time to wait now, this new F18 will be presented at the 'nautic' expo in Paris, on december 5th.

In french those little rails on the side of the hulls are called "Moustaches", and the current thinking on the french forums I visit is that they are there mostly for marketing reason. It's all cute and curvy, but mostly useless...

http://www.catclubzeeland.nl/e107_images/newspost_images/2414.480.jpg
could this be it?

I think that's an FXone with the jib track. Doesn't look long enough to be a Fox

i heard orrigionally thats what it was going to look like. a shorter fox. Could the other pic be a ruse?

I saw that picture too but that is probably just a regular Fox, according to the entry list there are two of them competing there.
Its also a little to big to be an F18, its the same same length as the N20 sitting next to it.

It's a Fox. You can see the trampoline track on the inside of the hull.

The boat was relesed this weekend anyone got photos?

I spoke to Mischa today he said the mast section is not completed but is on stand by to start testing very soon.

I will post soms pics as soon as i get soms proper WIFI.

That's kind of like the guy that leaves me voicemails at my desk stating "I'll try you on your cell phone, so disregard this message".

Post intentionally left blank.....

EXACTLY!

I thought I had the cliffhanger thing going on here

Just got back from Paris, had a good time at the boatshow, turned out I wasnt the only one crazy enough to drive to Paris and back in a day.

Anyway, here are the pics I took at the boatshow today (except the one from the foils, I got those from a fellow sailor).
http://picasaweb.google.nl/TonyMels/ParisBoatshow08
Hobiecat used a color paint which was particularly hard to photograph.
I put all things multihull or interesting in the gallery.
Also checkout the new FX-One Carbon which looks really good.

great photos, although its a shame people kept blocking your profile shot.

What's the iCat?

iCat it the new FX1-Full Carbon.
The new F18 is actually called the W.Cat (or very similar).

Sweet pics. Was that Beto's crossing cat? The one with the wing tents?

I enjoy watching evolution. That daggerboard is so thin and skinny - it's a complete deviation from the beginnings of F18 development. Early F18s (Nacras) used the high profile (skinny) I20 board profile but rumor had it that it made the boat really hard to handle on the start line when the water speed was low. F18 evolved fatter and fatter boards. Now this with the really high aspect ratio foil (it appears to be even more so than the early Nacra). Is it a step forward, or a step back? Perhaps it's something that you have to be REALLY good at boat handling to use on the start line - but I can see how it might have an upwind advantage.

The bow seems to be pretty thin. The reverse bow does sing a little like the Capricorn. It's hard to tell due to the color - but it doesn't seem to have as much down-low hull volume that the Capricorn has. The sterns look fat and wide and has the chine - Infusion-esque. It perhaps has more rocker than both the Capricorn and the Infusion - sort of like the older Nacra F18. It's a good looking boat.

Not that I'm in the market for an F18 at the moment - but I am disappointed that it appears that the Tiger trampoline attachment method will be carrying over to this boat. The Tiger tramps always felt so mushy because they aren't laced to any hard points on the sides. That, or the Tigers I've sailed on weren't tightened properly.

Jake: the tiger you sailed was probably not set up properly, if you tighten it with the mainsheet it is usually quite stiff.

As you can see it is far from a finished product, from what i heard there will indeed be a different tramp setup (dont know the exact details yet).

Surley those dagger boards will break.

Will be interesting to see finished product.

Someone out there will get a photo of the Test boats. They are not that easy to hide.

no reason for the foils to break if properly built. They do however look like a mistake to be. They would be fast on the computer and in two boat testing with the world's best on board. But in the hands of Joe Weekend, I see a lot of bad starts and poor tacks.

Tony,

was there any published data on how huch the FX1 carbon tips the scales at?

I think it looks fantastic. Those foils look dangerous. Can't wait to see it on the water. I wonder if all boats leaving the factory will have that high gloss finish on them.

Can someone please explain why the the very high aspect foils make it harder to control at lower speeds?

A short wide foil will resist side force at lower speed. Imagine an airplane with a big fat stubby wing...like this:



It flies really well at low speeds - the fat wide wing generates a lot of lift without much air flowing over it. However, it has a lot of drag if you try to make it fly faster.

Now picture a very long narrow wing....like this:



Slope soarers / gliders are developed to be highly efficient but have to be at pretty good speeds to develop lift (compared to the lazy bee pictured above).

This translates into this: a short fat foil will provide the side force needed to control the boat off the start line - when it's moving very slowly in the water. A long narrow foil will stall and not generate much lift until it achieves a certain amount of flow over it's surface. This will make a long narrow foil very sensitive at low speeds and susceptible to stall.

Nice looking hulls, not sure about that spray chine though...wonder if they'll get filled in after market?

Excellent Pictures. I'm very envious that you were able to go.

Nice pictures tony!

Where's the rest of it?

Rear beam looks like it might be a bit of a wave slapper?

Shouldn't this conversation be over on the "Test"?

The bow looks like it is raked back more on the FXone, hard too tell any other differences in hull shape. The color really makes things look different. I wonder if the production models, both the F18, and the Carbon FXone will be produced in white, or this color.

Both look really nice!

I wonder if the boards are actually the same size as the current boards, but the holes just look smaller because of the color, and the larger volume hull.

Keep scrolling through, there is a photo of a board.

Holy hell! I was just looking at the hole in the hull. Yeah, that baby is tiny. Just a guess-timate, but 2 inches less than the Tiger board?

Where there any rudders? Your picture No. 37 indicates those will have surface under the hull. Yee...

This is all interesting but I'm wondering if they have not gone to far with the foils. No obvious "want-this-feel, but that's me and I'm always a late adaptor.

The conclusion is correct in general, however not only aspect ratio but also the area itself is important (a high aspect ratio foil would work, if it is only big enough). It is hard to judge the controlabilty without knowing area and span.

But even more important: I have my doubts that it will bring any hydrodynamic advantage upwind. The reduced induced drag of the increased span, might be easily overcome by the increased friction drag due to reduced Reynoldsnumber. If the area is too small, there will be also a risk of cavitation at high speeds.

Would be interesting if the production boat will have more conventional daggerboards or if they learn it the hard way.

Cheers,

Klaus

I just realized that color looks like Duratec surfacing primer. Did they bring out their plugs for the show?

those boards would look even nicer if there were slanted slightly forward of center along the lengthwise midline. Kind of like a forward-swept wing.

I said LOOK nicer, because that would probably be inherently unstable (and collect seagrass like nobody's business!)

The color is very similar but what about the rig fittings in place and the inspection hole?

According to Mischa that is the first hull produced, and board produced.
IMO it is close to the finished product but not itself finished. Kind of like the prototype car you see this year then next year the sales model is slightly different.

This isn't a production hull, It's the master male plug. Plugs are always done in dark colors.
Martin Fischer did the design work, the same guy that did the Capricorn F18.
some differents, added spray rails newer beam saddles new daggers hulls are not cantered



Rich

The next question would be, is Hobie USA going to import them?

I really want to know what the carbon FXone is going to cost, and what it weighs. I seriously doubt that will get imported here though.

What do you want it to weight and what do you expect it to weight? I dont know but would love to hear what people want and think.

I don't think 250lbs is out of the question, but it is alot to ask to take 70lbs out of a design. Chances are it'll be out of my price range anyhow.

Price of the I-cat (FXOne Carbon) is about 17.500 euro in Europe (I guess that is the base model, one-up).

I also really wonder what the boat will weigh. Hobie Holland didn't reply yet.

In my opinion the F18 bows look very thin. I really wonder how they will cope with heavy seas under kite.
If you see the shape of the new hull, it is clear that the Cap, Viper and Blade were really innovative already years ago. Especially the Blade if you check the thin high aspect daggerboards and rudders.

Gill

Suggestion about low rear crossbar: reminds me of what was said about the Bimare 18-HT. Turned out to be a problem, nicht wahr?

Some new pics have emerged which also show the rudder shape, it was obviously taken on a quite day as it was possible to take a pic of the whole boat.

..continued.

Is it an illusion or is the hull straight up and down but the x bars are slightly angled up? Are the hulls possibly slightly canted?

It looks like the designer carried over a lot of the ideas he used in the Capricorn.

i dont know if you've seen these..... but the new prototype Hobie F18 was released at the Pairs boat show in December....... its calll the "W...Cat" there isnt much of a pic.... but it has the specification!

http://hobie-cat.net/site_gb/

http://hobie-cat.net/img/produits/w_cat_description_gb.pdf