F16 isn't about rules! its about feeling that you are smarter than everyone else because you have seen the light and now as an enlightened one you are above the usual restraints such as rules.

Someone forgot to tell John P (2008 GC champ) and Hanks K (2007 GC Champ) that 1-up is slower than 2-up.......

If I had to race a 2 up boat all the time, I wouldn't be here, nor would a lot of other F16 sailors who want the flexibility of doing it -both ways-, that's all I'm saying.

There really isn't a problem inside the F16 class, the problem exists only with other classes, why they care is beyond me, oh, wait, they don't like being beaten in an open type event. I hate open type events where you have to do math to decide who won, but there will never be a perfect rating program, it is what it is, so accept it and move on, or don't show up. And Ding, if the rule doesn't exist, who is breaking it?

What is the real issue? Is it the upcoming Area D's you are concerned with?
Just put in the sailing instructions, there will be NO crew or sail changes and no configuration changes, that ought to cover it. That way you won't have to worry about anyone trying to leave crew behind, or change out crew for wind conditions in the 2 up boats as well.

And Macca, nice job at the F18N/A's, if that was you. But you don't have to paint us all with the same brush.

Macca must be out of work again or have too much time on his hands, he's back making crass statements again on the F16 Forum ( its certainly been quiet without him ), can't we just all chip in and buy him a F16 and tempt him over to the darrrrk side, he may become our biggest "converttee", oh he already owns one, his Maricat, forget that.

missed you at Hiram's Timbo. You and Matt would have had fun uni sailing Saturday....

I missed you too Jay! How was it for you? How's the back? I had to work, somebody's got to pay for this stuff and the wife refuses, so that leaves me...

Actually, the F16 class rule do contain the limit that you may only use a single suit of sails for the duration of the event. So you can not change out a mainsail or whatever unless the SI of the event specifically overrule this and allow it. As good as always this mean in case of irrepairable damage and after a request to the RC has been made succesfully.

Apart from that, many people here should read the other regulations governing sailboat races like the ISAF set of racing and event rules and standard SI given out by local organisation. Lots of things left out of the F16 class rules are indeed regulated by these seperate set of rules.

Apart from that I don't see the (Alter Cup fear) either. I don't remember a F16 crew changing over setups at any major event like the Alter Cup qualifier. I don't recall even a single crew seriously considering it. Why are we suddenly all so afraid for something that is regulated in SI and such and that also never happened ?

Wouter

Because they have not read the standard SI's?

The Taipan fleet in Oz actually developed a standard set of Sailing Instructions for National and State Championships. This was to ensure a level of consistency for these annual events, and to make life easier for host clubs. Maybe something for F16 to consider for GC events? Means you have the Class Rules, but also SIs for "sanctioned" F16 events. But the SIs can override anything in the class rules if they wish.

Ref: http://www.formula16.org/content/view/16/38/lang,en/

Already in place.

Hmmm, not really. Doesn't specify courses, length of start line for number of boats, race distance, time on course, scoring method (like for 8 race series 1 drop after 4 races, 9 races + 2 drops) etc. These are all aspects that are key to a sailing event that are in the Sailing Instructions. As a suggestion if you standardise these it means you know what type of racing to expect and can train accordingly and develop sails as well. Otherwise a committee could put in really long reaches, or triangles, or P courses etc etc.

Again only a suggestion.

Sail/configuration change is covered there, which was the "big topic" further up in the thread.

I am used to a standarized format (windward-leeward, three laps) and always have to think through things if things are changed from that. Got a DNF and lost a 2 place at an event once becouse the RC decided to throw in a W/L-trapezoid with a finish to windward the last day at an event once. We messed it up royally so it was our own fault, but we were not happy

SIs have to accomodate local conditions so 'standarized SIs' will have to be adapted, but it is a good idea as far as I can tell. If you set up a proposal I'll bring it to the GC and the members forum.

Developing sails and training specifically for an event is taking it a bit too far IMHO. We are not there yet and I hope we dont get there either. That is olympic leve stuff, and even they dont get it right. Gambling for a light wind or strong wind event is just that, gambling. Top level competition is about minimizing risk in my opinion, not gambling.

Area D Elims (what some are calling the Alter Cup) is covered with regard to the SI's. The Area Elim SI's follow the template in the rule book.

Issue is we sail other events and not all events use the template. The problem is easily addressed.

Have a great weekend everyone.

Dave

I dont even think it is a problem. Precedence is well established. I understand that Dave is organizing racing as well as racing himself. As such we should thank him for taking interest and checking that things are done by the book.


Not long since we discussed this at length, and Simon, Phill and others are right IMHO.

That's all well and good, I like to play by the rules, else it's not really a game, is it? But here's the problem we run into quite often:

You are at some local club event, your crew for day 1 can't make day 2, not injured, but for what ever reason, doesn't want to go out. You have options, you can grab some guy in the parking lot who broke his boat on day 1 and isn't going to sail day 2, or something like that. Or on the F16, you have the option of sailing Uni if your crew bails or is hurt and you can't find another. But now you are all saying you might as well pack up and go home because you are now breaking rules,and some will even call you a cheater. At a local event! As if winning some peice of plastic is worth that.

Dave, you recall at Wild Cat a few weeks ago, I was sailing Uni, there was a little boy who wanted to crew for someone. You asked me if I could take him. And I replied that I didn't have my jib stuff and my second traps rigged up, which I didn't, but let's say I did. Let's say I did take him, and I'll tell you, if I had the extra stuff rigged, or if I'd had enough time to flip the boat and add the extra stuff, I would have, and I did consider it but time was running out to make the start, and it was blowing, and I didn't know this kid or more importantly, his parrents, his skill level, etc. So I was a bit leary...

But for our discussion, let's say I took him out, Sloop rigged. So as is usual on a windy day with five 3 lap races, this kid is worn out and doesn't want to sail day 2. He's not injured mind you, but maybe I scared the crap out of him when I sent him flying around the forestay.

Now what?

Now I'm screwed. I can't swap crew, and I can't sail Uni unless I want to be called a cheater.

Is that how it's going to be?

I thought we were supposed to be having fun. But now I can't sail, so where is the fun?

And what about that little kid? I'm sure down deep he's now thinking, "Sailors are DICKS! Nobody would take me sailing so screw them, I want a Jet Ski!"

When this stops being fun, I'll sell the racing boat and buy a ski boat or a cruising boat. Life is too short to take a local race so seriously. And judging by attendance, I don't think I'm the only one who feels this way.

Trying to PM you.

"Timbo is over their Private Topic limit."

So how do you stop sailors from tossing their crew off if they find it advantageous? That is the real question.

If you know beforehand that you will only have crew for so many days, apply for permission to change configuration before the event. I would not mind that.
In a local race where I know everybody I would not mind you changing configuration if your crew was scared/injuried/had to go either. If there is a RC/jury, apply for permission to swap crew or configuration and get out there.
Once there is something "important" up for grabs, we better play by the book, as that is the only way to minimize discontent in my opinion. Viewing it like that supports the claim that racing is a loosing game for everybody but the sole person/crew who wins (so we should focus on other stuff than racing).

What is it with racing you find fun? Is it the scoring, or measuring yourself up against others on the course? Like Phill said, you could go out and participate, but expect to be scored DSQ? (and possibly some grumbling about you being in the way when you have no business there).

I completely agree with you that this should be about fun, but we need a structure for racing to make sure it is reasonable fair.

Tim, this rule/policy has been around for as long as I've been sailing and it's there for a reason. I've told you and your fellow fleet memebers told you how to get an exception or waiver. The issue is is that some sailors don't feel the query is necessary.

Also keep in mind, the higher you are in the standings the less likely you will get the go ahead from the fleet to change your configuration.

I've been caught in the middle, and this issue is coming to a head. I felt discussing it here would be a better approach than someone getting flicked at a regatta.

I agree Dave, so let's discuss it. I guess in my scenario I have to go to each and every other compettitor and ask permission to race with 1. a different crew and/or 2. a different configuration, correct? And what if 9 out of 10 say, No Problem. But just one says, No Way. (there's always one, right?)

Do we take a vote or is one enough to keep me from racing?

Rolf, you say "Just apply for permission" you then assume permission is granted, what if it's not? Obviously you are not going to make any changes. Too bad for the little kid who wanted to crew I guess. Who needs new people in the sport anyway, especially kids...

Open for discussion.

I think the key is to only sail with people you enjoy being around. For myself, I'll be sticking much closer to GYC. I don't really want to share the water with the people who constantly attack me. In that regard, "Tradewinds" may be out for me. There are three or four people who attend that I just don't want to be around.

Refresh my memory: last year at GYC no one asked permission for anything, they just did what they thought was reasonable. I have no argument with that. But how did the scoring work?