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how big of a deal is "windage" #159196
11/03/08 05:03 PM
11/03/08 05:03 PM

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andrewscott
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i have heard lots of people talk about cutting down windage by using thinner lines, dropping their main blocks down with some line, and other measures to reduce windage. how big of a deal is it really?

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Re: how big of a deal is "windage" [Re: ] #159203
11/03/08 05:48 PM
11/03/08 05:48 PM
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Wouter Offline
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100 % psychological

Wouter


Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: how big of a deal is "windage" [Re: ] #159206
11/03/08 06:15 PM
11/03/08 06:15 PM
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I definitely noticed a difference in sailing my Taipan with the spinnaker snuffer compared to without it...upwind.


Eric Poulsen
A-class USA 203
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Re: how big of a deal is "windage" [Re: Wouter] #159251
11/03/08 10:18 PM
11/03/08 10:18 PM

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Originally Posted by Wouter

100 % psychological

Wouter


I am a little surprised you say that... i expected you to have a formula for it.

Re: how big of a deal is "windage" [Re: ] #159273
11/04/08 04:23 AM
11/04/08 04:23 AM
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Wouter Offline
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Quote

I am a little surprised you say that... i expected you to have a formula for it.


The question was about smaller mainsheet blocks and thinner traplines etc. Not whether a whole part of the boat was removed like a snuffer setup (or crew).

From the top om my head The guys of Miss Nylex C-class catamaran established that the whole boat incurred some 4% pure wind drag. And that includes major components like the hulls, the beams, trampoline etc. So there is your upper limit of gains.

Somewhere in that massive 4% will be the contribution of say a 10 mm thick mainsheet compared to a 8 mm mainsheet. A mainsheet that recides in very much a turbulant patch of airflow because it is in the back of the boat and by that time the flow has already encountered many components that can trip it up. That is why the rear end of a modern airplane show plain rivets without any concern for aerodynamics. Putting an more aerodynamic object in an already turbulant flow will not result in significant gains.

I wager that any of these small changes will not result in more then 0.1% drag loss and therefor in only in 2 seconds speed increase over an hour of racing. To small to be worth the trouble.

Removing a large object like the snuffer will have of course more impact but that is several orders more significant because of its size and place on the boat (in front and therefor in much less disturbed air)

Wouter



Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: how big of a deal is "windage" [Re: Wouter] #159288
11/04/08 07:01 AM
11/04/08 07:01 AM
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Brisbane, Queensland, Australi...
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Should look at the crew/skipper positions for windage benefits. Keep close to each other, crew slightly lower on trapeze.

Re: how big of a deal is "windage" [Re: ncik] #159296
11/04/08 07:55 AM
11/04/08 07:55 AM
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Australia
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Well, it may be in your head Wouter but for others it is a measurable difference.

BMWO AC team changed the shape of their runner lines in 2006 and gained more than 4 seconds a mile upwind. now that might seem like nothing to you but over a 2 mile beat 8 seconds is big, and it means boatlengths which in that game is king.

So Air drag is very important, particularly when it comes to the size and shape of things such as stay wires and trap lines etc.

One of the biggest areas of development in Grand Prix yacht racing in the last 12-18 months has been the reduction of windage. Now are they all spending that money for nothing? things such as hiding traditional cabin top winches behind the coachhouse, and recessing primary winches into the deck to reduce the presented area.

Also fairing spreaders and rigging attachments to the mast.

On a beach cat there are many messy things and its hard to quantify or even justify single changes, but a low windage philosophy is a good approach to have. It all adds up and it sure as hell won't make you slower!



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Re: how big of a deal is "windage" [Re: macca] #159313
11/04/08 09:17 AM
11/04/08 09:17 AM

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So you are saying i shouldn't bring my baby grand piano onboard anymore?.... ok thanks

Re: how big of a deal is "windage" [Re: ] #159317
11/04/08 09:27 AM
11/04/08 09:27 AM
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Australia
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I think that's more of a weight issue rather than windage... smile


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Re: how big of a deal is "windage" [Re: macca] #159320
11/04/08 09:33 AM
11/04/08 09:33 AM
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Originally Posted by macca
I think that's more of a weight issue rather than windage... smile


Both!!!


F16 - GBR 553 - SOLD

I also talk sport here
Re: how big of a deal is "windage" [Re: ] #159349
11/04/08 11:25 AM
11/04/08 11:25 AM
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John Shuttleworth did some measurements on a somewhat bigger cat and found that air drag DID matter.
Article: Dogstar 50
It wouldn't suprise me that the low and rounded decks on a "wave piercing" a-class benefits from lees windage.

Geert

Re: how big of a deal is "windage" [Re: macca] #159352
11/04/08 11:45 AM
11/04/08 11:45 AM
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Quote

Now are they all spending that money for nothing? things such as hiding traditional cabin top winches behind the coachhouse,



Thanks for the tip Macca !

Next time that I'll buy or build and F16 beachcat I'll be sure to put my "cabin top winch" behind "My coachhouse"

Wouter


Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: how big of a deal is "windage" [Re: geert] #159354
11/04/08 11:51 AM
11/04/08 11:51 AM
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Geert,

I have raced as a crew on 44 and 48 foot Cabin cruiser Cat for the last three years. The build up hulls (accomodation) and the roofed Salon mid deck on those boats present a HUGE frontal area and indeed lead to significant windage.

But I have never seen these features on a beach cat. In fact the Miss Nylex C-class design reflects today's beach cat design alot more closely then the DOGstar 50 if you ask me. If the total windage of everything is given as 4% there then I think that would be the best place to start for us Beachcats as well

Best of luck,

Wouter


Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: how big of a deal is "windage" [Re: Wouter] #159361
11/04/08 12:32 PM
11/04/08 12:32 PM
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Australia
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Originally Posted by Wouter

Thanks for the tip Macca !

Next time that I'll buy or build and F16 beachcat I'll be sure to put my "cabin top winch" behind "My coachhouse"

Wouter


You are an A grade dickhead aren't you.

It might suprise you but beach cats are not at the leading edge of sailboat performance so it might be usefull to see what developments are taking the time and attention of professionals who are focused on improving the performance of high performance sail boats and then applying that thinking to your boat..

Oh and while we are at it, I will give you a Catamaran related windage example. On the X40 we raise and lower the gennaker even on short legs (less than 2mins) because of.....wait for it..... windage!!

Oh and we tested it and it is PROVEN to make a difference.



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Re: how big of a deal is "windage" [Re: macca] #159372
11/04/08 01:08 PM
11/04/08 01:08 PM
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Macca: When the X40s where racing in A'dam I noticed that some teams (Alinghi and others) lowered their jibs about 1m.
Do you know why?

Re: how big of a deal is "windage" [Re: Tony_F18] #159379
11/04/08 01:23 PM
11/04/08 01:23 PM

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Good spirited info... thanks, i love it

Re: how big of a deal is "windage" [Re: Wouter] #159399
11/04/08 02:22 PM
11/04/08 02:22 PM
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UK
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Originally Posted by Wouter


From the top om my head The guys of Miss Nylex C-class catamaran established that the whole boat incurred some 4% pure wind drag. And that includes major components like the hulls, the beams, trampoline etc. So there is your upper limit of gains.


Wouter,
I'm just trying to put this into context for all. You are stating that the aero drag of a C-class highly developed wingmast is just 4% of total drag of the boat(includes 2 x 25ft hulls with displacement of??? + boards in water @ 800-1000 times more density than the air)? As opposed the aero drag of the applicable part of the craft having a drag coefficient of 0.04 (an incredible figure)

It would help everyone understand this more if you could quantify the aero drag in terms of lbs or kg.

Other than obsessive fairing and maintenance of the underwater surfaces and hull flying technique we can't do much about hull drag. With the rig we can - minimise size (and weight)of rigging, halyards not interfering with airflow over the sail, multiple purchase systems on the side of the mast etc. How much less drag (lbs/kg) can be expected by reducing the rigging interference?

Cheshirecatman

Re: how big of a deal is "windage" [Re: Cheshirecatman] #159404
11/04/08 03:46 PM
11/04/08 03:46 PM
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Again from the top of my head (I have the document archieved somewhere but I'm not digging it up)

4% of the Total drag of the Miss Nyles C-class catamaran was attributed to parasitic drag. This EXCLUDES the windage of the crew and the INDUCED AND FORM drag of the sails. Basically it it the windage of the hulls, beams, stays, trampoline, sheet systems and some other fittings.

Your talk of drag coefficient of 0.04 is just confused and totally in error. I only said 4% of the total drag, any aerodynamic coefficients may still be any value, it is just that they don't amount to more then 4% of the total drag.

Quote

It would help everyone understand this more if you could quantify the aero drag in terms of lbs or kg.


I don't remember this data from Miss Nylex but I do know that both the 49-er skiffs and F16's have a top speed total drag in the neighbourhood of 75 kg's. Note that this INCLUDES the INDUCED and FORM drag of the sails, a thing you will never "feel" on board. Basically the hulls and daggerboards alone comprise around 50 kg's in total for these 16 footers.

So removing the beams completely as well as the trampoline the stays and other fittings will win you 4% of roughly 75 kg = 3 kg. But at that time you will not have a boat. So the real question is how much can be gained by minimizing the beams etc.

The answer here is that it is often a zero sum game. You can reduce the frontal area of the beams by going for smaller diameters, But as payback you'll also reduce platform stiffness. You can never improve on both simultaniously unless you are willing to accept much heavier beams which many will claim is very slow as well.

Going to thinner stays lowers rig stiffness and sags your spinnaker luff. You think you'll win some windage benefit but throw it out the door with maybe a multiplication factor of ten by having a sagging and unsteable spi luff.

We must see these issue's as an interconnected set of interdependencies. That is why simple rules of thumb like "Thinner stays are always better" are so utterly useless.

It is all about striking the optimal balance.

Now on cabin cruisers and large monoslugs there is plenty of stuff to play with. The "winch behind the cabin" stuff. On beach cats, well, what is still there that isn't truly necessary ? We have already removed stuff like cabins on these boats a long time ago.

On beachcats the choice is between 4 mm 1x19 stays or 3 mm 1x7 dyform stays. Between a 4 mm spi halyard and a 3 mm spi halyard (2 mm halyard really does hurt your hands when a gust slams the spi). This stuff is to small to matter. So you save, what, 0.018 sq mtr on a total frontal area of 0.5 sq. mtr. (=4%) that itself was only associated with 4% of the total drag => 4% times 4% equals 0.16% drag reduction of a total of about 75 kg => 0.12 kg or a quarter lbs.

That is what we are talking about here. Multiplications of several small percentages resulting in negligiable differences.

The only exceptions can be disturbances like the spi halyard running up along the mast as it may negatively influence the reattachment zones of the larger sail behind it and thus leverage its negligiable drag into a much larger loss of drive. But this requires very careful analyses with experimental setups and possibly windtunnels.

Wouter

Last edited by Wouter; 11/05/08 08:21 AM.

Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: how big of a deal is "windage" [Re: Wouter] #159409
11/04/08 04:39 PM
11/04/08 04:39 PM
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Thanks Wouter,
The omission of the rig from the 4% figure is significant in trying to understand the figures. The F16/49er info is probably easier for most to appreciate. From the figures you give most people will probably get more of an advantage by simply wiping surface dirt of the hulls and boards.

Cheshirecatman

Re: how big of a deal is "windage" [Re: Wouter] #159412
11/04/08 05:19 PM
11/04/08 05:19 PM

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andrewscott
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Originally Posted by Wouter

So you save what 0.018 sq mtr on a total front area of 0.5 sq. mtr. (4%) that itself was only associated with a total of 4% drag => 4% times 4% equals 0.16% drag reduction of a total of about 75 kg => 0.12 kg or a quarter lbs


I knew we would get a formula at some point!.. interesting data... thanks

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