Ah, two piece mast of course. How often have I not wished for that to go with the two piece bowsprit (or telescoping bowsprit)

If a Hobie 16 is being referred to as a performance cat do you really think an F16 is a suitable boat to compare the Topaz to? If Yves Loday wanted to design an F16 we all know how easy that would be.
The Topaz ticks the boxes of what was previously suggested and a bargain for any US buyers with the current exchange rate.
Now, if it was to be built out of high performance thermoplastic matrix composites(HPTMC) instead of being rotomoulded, and had daggerboards you then start working towards a low maintenance performance cat.
However, talking about improving cat designs, how about HPTMC masts?

Cheshirecatman

How light, flexible, durable and pricy would HPTMC masts be

Performance - designed-in as per a carbon/epoxy matrix mast with additional benefit of being less fragile. The potential benefit is using thermoplastic lends itself to cheaper volume production, but tooling costs? I suspect they could also be produced over a male mandrel but surface finish may not be as high as people may like.

Cheshirecatman

The spi pole on my stealth is made of two piece of carbon tube sleeving into each other. I don't know why it is done that way rather than one big pole, but as it makes it possible to fit it into my trailer box I'm rather happy about it...

At the time that's what I was comparing the Topaz with. I wanted to replace the 5.2 and I was looking at what to replace it with.

I briefly considered the Topaz 16 and the Dart 15 as possible alternatives. In the end I went for a F16 because that's one of the largest and most active fleet at my club, and it is way faster than any rotomolded boat.

Lot's of people on this site want to refurbish old boats. I think a clearing house for old, spare parts would be helpful in increasing participation.

If you want to invent something, how about a fool-proof righting sytem. All the current systems have limitations, usually limited to the skill (or body weight) of the user.

I use the most basic system: a line stowed in the tramp pocket and attached to the dolphin striker. On an idyllic day, this system is nearly perfect. As conditions deteriorate, and fatigue sets in, just climbing onto the hull becomes a chore. A system which could be deployed while still in the water would be safer, easier to use, and most importantly, would add peace of mind for the sailor concerned about his crew.

How about some design goals.

Make them cheaper - a 25k i20 is obscene.

Make them lighter. - There is no reason a f18 has to weigh 400lbs.

Make them more durable - and make the components durable, get rid of hollow rudders, and make them kick up.

Make them easier to right, (Tikipete's right on)

Make them more comfortable to cruise - Add wings or extension seats for when you dont want to trap out, so you can easily take friends and family and not worry about if they can trap out.

Make them easier to rig.

Make them fun to sail - bigger rigs, lighter weight, more durable all add up to more fun, less fuss.

So you want to turn the F18 into a lightweights boat? keeping the weight up not only negates the expense of using 'exotics' but enables a good range of crew weights for competitive racing. Over the years F18 has succesfully attracted sailors from a number of other classes due to its non-extreme rules. It IS a successful formula. Want a light boat? F16, A-class, Shadow.......

Cheshirecatman

First of all, I dont have any desire to make the f18 lighter, it was an example. We were talking about design ideas, not the f18 class specifically.

But since you brought it up, making hulls out of standard production materials that weigh much less than the current f18 hulls would be easy.

The guys from Madison, CT took an old Rorche Acat mold and made a f18, and they had a HARD TIME making it weigh enough. Overbuilt doesnt add anything.

I used to joke that when Bimare was making their f18, they were going to take an HT hull and pour resin in it. The HT hulls arent exotic, polyester resin and fiberglass, and they are dramatically lighter than the f18 hulls.

So, yes lighter is a goal that I would recommend to improve today's cat designs. I wouldnt change a thing about the f18 class, its doing fine the way it is.

Technically much is possible but often the consequences are not desirable. The benefit of boat weight negating crew weight advantages has created a wide playing field in f18. When creating a very light boat the crew weight becomes a greater factor and you have to look at the appeal to the cat sailing populace.

Cheshirecatman

Wow, thats a stupid excuse for a heavy boat.

A heavier crew has an advantage in big winds and a lighter crew has an advantage in lighter winds no matter what boat we are talking about, but that still doesnt guarantee a win. Go look at the Acat fleet, Lars is one of the heaviest guys in that fleet at 185lb and he routinely beats everyone else weighing in at 150-160lb.

Besides the f18 class has allowances for differience size crews with the differient sail areas.

RE: Tornado Alive--- This is keeping it simple? WOW! Brain damage has been documented!

"No boards, Huge trailer box, 2 complete rigs, inverted mount on trailer..., 2 or 4 mains to choose from"

the reheated nacra 5.8/580 has swing up boards

http://www.nacra.us/580/580dex.htm

roto-molded kayaks are very very tough and last very well cart wheeling off roof racks etc. mine got semi crushed under snow but an afternoon of hot sun popped it all out

of course they start to look like crap when the scratches get all furry but i bet they last longer than people want them

The Topaz looks something like the Morelli & Melvin Escape Cat, pic above. Which is no longer on Escape's list, apparently sunk from sight and Escape's site (It went out of US to Nacra Europe as the Playcat.)

I think cat dealers need a bailout from Congress. No more living out of vans down by the river. Just sail your A-cats to a hearing tomorrow! (Like the GM folks did their private jets!)

When I watched the video on the 40th regatta that JW posted, it was interesting to watch young Hobie Alter in an old film drawing out his cat design in the beach sand. And then the older Hobie saying that that is his drawing board. Plus you had to check with your buddies to make sure they liked the boat first.

Reminds me of Steve Wozniak working out of his garage, designing the Apple.

So, that backyard, garage approach to cat sailing, hasn't it always been a big part of cats? And is it going away?

I'm coming to the conclusion that it is pointless trying to improve cat design. It seems that many sailors either fail to notice developments or are too blinkered to accept them.

Cheshirecatman

With all the arguments about weight I'm starting to think that maybe adding a lead keel to the F18 would level out the playing field even more... Just like it has on Mono's. Reckon that would see us back in the Olympics in no time too!
To tell you the truth, I think sailing should be all about brains, not brawn. If a level playing field is desired in OD racing I'd prefer crew weight categories, like they have in boxing or wrestling.
As to heavier boats being cheaper to produce, I don't believe it, unless they're made prom paper-mache(sp). All that resin has to cost a lot, I'd rather pay for some extra carbon than 20 extra liters of epoxy!

This thread is supposed to discuss proposals to improve cat designs !

Jimi specifically asked you not to reiterate all previous arguments about weight.

What do we now think is the optimal hull shape?
What about planing hulls?
What is the optimal board shape?
New ideas for sails?
What about lifting foils?

And ideas that makes life (cats) easier ...?

Stein