Jake,
You've guzzled of the media Kool-aid. I think you can find many countries in the world where you would get your list.
I really wonder why you would describe an inanimate object as "very violent and extremely powerful ". Would you describe your car as "very violent and extremely powerful" or your boat " very violent and extremely powerful" they both have the same potential. You can get the most damaging ammo in a 100 round clip, load an Uzi, even leave the safety OFF, and set it on a table and watch it. It won't move ,it won't fire , it won't do anything. Therefore it is not violent.The uzi, by the way, is only 9mm ,which is a far cry from powerful.
There is even a website that has had a camera on an AR-15 since Clinton was in office, and it hasn't made a move. For the extremely intelligent gnome that I know you are, you don't make much sense on this. You have taken the media's spew and absorbed and repeat it.
For probably the only time in this thread the term assault weapon was used properly in describing the FULL AUTO uzi.
I know ,Wiki sucks http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assault_weapon
Take note of the sentence that begins with "Legislators and political lobbyists" I tend to believe more in military definitions of weapons than beauraucratic definitions.

Tawd

I know it's a cliché " guns don't kill people, people kill people" by in a way it is true. Honestly I think it is our "new" society and our complete refusal to be responsible for our own actions that is to blame. Nobody wants to be accountable. Not the show organizers, the father, or the trainer. I would hope than at least one of them would have thought "this might be a bad idea".

The refusal of our young people to accept that they have to be responsible for themselves creates an environment where violence can be justified by anything. That dynamic is to blame for more than a few of our countries issues lately. IMHO.

I dug this out of my archives of emails. I feel somehow it is appropiate for this thread. Sorry for the long link name but I couldn't find a way to upload a file to this site.

When the wife doesn't listen

"Someday someone may kill you with your own gun, but they should have to beat you to death with it because it is empty."

My employer's a jerk. I was already thinking about quitting anyway.

J

How can you be so blinkered ? If you leave the gun lying around for long enough, it is likely that someone will come along and kill someone with it.
You need your car to get around - it is a modern day necessity. Most people do not need to have a gun - it is a macho big boy's toy. And if you have one in your posession, it is possible that it will kill someone someday.

Borat Discovers What It Takes To Be A Real Man
"Can u buy antitank gun for self defence?
Yes, in texas. " LOL


I also did some more research and you guys are right, guns dont kill people.
Its actually the bullit that does the actual kill, sorry bout that.

You can drop the "Gun Control" from the first sentence and you've hit the nail on the head, Jake.

We are ALL looking for someone to blame. From the girls who took topless photos of themselves and are suing the school dept because the photos were distributed (BY THE BOYS THE GIRLS SENT THE PHOTOS TO!) to the dead employee's family who is suing Walmart, to this STUPID, STUPID father who let his son handle and fire an UZI without thinking "what could go wrong?".

You can't legislate safety. The world is a place that you can get hurt in. Outlaw all guns, cars, kitchen knives, anything with a sharp point, and still someone will get killed. Sh!t happens.
How many stories have we discussed about a person getting trapped under a turtled boat? N-O-B-O-D-Y cried for the outlawing of catamarans or sheets. You try to make something as safe as possible but at some point you have to take the risk and go for it. Stop looking for whom to blame. Jake is right. It's becoming our culture that nothing is the individuals (or the parents/guardians) responsibility.

Answer me this;

is this 8 year killing himself in this circumstance wrong?

You guys are so entrenched that you act like it's perfectly acceptable! Until the avid gun supporters can admit that an 8 year old dying from a poorly handled gun at a public gun show is a problem, we can never fix it unless some legislator somewhere slaps a new law in place. By the gun organizations not recognizing the problem and taking responsibility by actively trying to find a solution - the legislators are left with no other choice!

What if the kid lost control and sprayed all the people behind him with (tiny little 9mm) bullets? Would you admit that there is a problem there then?

2) find me a gunshow somewhere else in the world where everone gets to fire an automatic weapon. I work with people around the world. I dine with people from around the world. I travel with people around the world. It's not the media. I have direct experience that it is only in America (and perhaps a few extremely violent 3rd world countries) that treat guns so carelessly and with so little respect. I'm not talking about laws and I'm not professing more laws - I'm talking about our culture. Our international contingency on this forum will, most certainly, back me up on this one. I've dined in a mall in Israel while 17 year old soldiers inspect our table's activity with assault rifles in their hands. I've walked four miles in Palestine on foot. I've traveled across Saudi Arabia and been scoured through their customs/immigration. I've spent a lot of time in Germany, Italy, Malaysia, Sweden, Spain, France, the UK, and Japan. I'm not overly influenced by the American media.

My car has nothing to do with this. It was not invented to kill.

An Uzi IS A VIOLENT WEAPON! Holy cow are you guys disconnected. It takes a lot of strength to handle one because it's firing is very rapid and violent. The fact the the bullets are only 9mm is easily offset by the rate at which they come out of the barrel - 10 of those "tiny" little bullets come out of that barrel in one second.

I repeat again, I am not for more gun control laws. I don't like big brother putting more controls in place anymore than any of you. HOWEVER, I am for people to take the responsibility to recognize that there is a problem from a humanitarian perspective and doing something to deal with it BEFORE the legislators feel like they need to put a law in place.

I figured this out.

You guys feel that it's OK for this 8 year old to die because it's acceptable that the people involved were simply irresponsible and it won't affect you because you're better than that.

I feel that we share a humanitarian obligation to try and prevent a needless death and that such an event could potentially affect me or someone I know.

I guess if we can agree on the dichotomy of these two positions then we can quit here (and I can get back to my end-of-year work).

Rolf
This not exactly the same topic... but related...
Here is one of the repercussions of bureaucrats taking away your rights to defend your selves with firearms…a much larger scale, but the results are the same.

The topic? Piracy in the Gulf of Aden

Here is what one of the crewmen of a ship who transverses this part of the world has to say..

I worked on ships in that area and the best and least expensive solution is automatic weapons and rockets and 3 to 5 man security teams on every ship. They could move from one ship to another like harbor pilots do after they leave the danger area. The problem is international laws make it difficult to have any guns on a ship. Change that law and we have a defense. Let the anti gun groups around the world [United Nations] force all of us to go completely defenseless with the vague promise of call the cops and you will be protected. It sounds good on paper but in reality it can't work due to the enormous cost to protect every ship from outside the ship. The best defense is a good offense. Anyone who doesn't believe me should board a ship and go through there with your Utopian ideals and hope for the best. You might get lucky, because luck is all you have without a gun.

People that advocate gun control seem to be of the naive opinion that everyone can be reasoned with...a ideology that is based on a false premise...you can't reason with someone who has no value for human life...not yours...not mine...not their own...Doesn't matter if its a Somalia pirate or a 14 year old gang banger with a Mack 10.

Regards,
Bob

To all those living outside the US that feel compelled to comment on our gun policies in the US read this:
http://www.wftv.com/mostpopular/18201932/detail.html

Click on this link (or cut and paste) to read about the brutal beating and rape of a 70 year old woman in Orlando this week...

This is a perfect example of a home invasion...When I read/hear about these thing on a regular bases it really pisses me off that some of my own country men try to keep us from being able to defend ourselves with handguns...when someone from thousands of miles a way...who doesn't have a clue of what they are talking about starts preaching their message of ignorance about gun control it just...well...I think I will stop right there...

Jake, I think very few would contest your opinion that the 8-year old's death is tragic.

Would a law prevent people from being irresponsible and instill common sense? Unlikely.

Do we NEED fully automatic weapons that are as poorly designed as the UZI and Mac-10? No way. My opinion is that these types of weapons are about the most useless firearm ever made (besides the original French machine gun of WWI):
- they cannot be effectively aimed due to high rate of fire, short barrel, and recoil
- They jam often
- they waste an inordinate amount of ammunition
So, I would consider them a very poor version of a scatter gun designed to inflict high % of collateral damage. What is the point of that? Who would need these characteristics other than someone intent on violence?

I don't agree that a complete firearm ban will prevent any of this irresponsibility.

Progressive levels of control seems to help keep inhernetly dangerous things (assault weapons, chemicals, commercial vehicles, etc) out of the hands of those least capable of safe operation. I think that's about as good as we can do on the legislative side.

Your previous posts about good parenting would cure society of about 99.999% of all our problems.

Not to further stir the pot, but an 8 year old CAN effectively handle an AK-47, and even 60mm mortars. This, to me, is the greater tragedy (that someone has trained them to do it).

I still firmly believe that knowledge is power. Teach people respect for firearms as well as safe operation, and maybe we'll cut down on some of the accidents.

Also, if anyone cares, in the USA you can be criminally charged for "brandishing a weapon" if you have a firearm in "plain view" in a public area. Even if you have a carry-permit. So, if you see someone waving a weapon, odds are that person is probably up to no good.

I can't let this go by...... Nobody is saying it is "okay" for any 8 year old kid to die. Stop trying to make this into something it isn't.

The question is: HOW FAR are you willing to go to try to prevent this type of thing?

The dichotomy is: You and others seem to be all wound up about the source of the death (ie the gun) and not about the personal responsibilty that was overlooked.

IF THE KID FELL OUT OF HIS TREEHOUSE (which would still be tragic and the kid would still be dead), would you be calling for a humanitarian effort to outlaw ladders? What about all the people that like and use their ladders? You get the point?

How about those "yard darts" people used to have a decade or so ago (and which may still be on the market). Think of your average dart and make it about .3 meter long and about 1 kg. People actually TOSSED these to each other. WTF? Would I throw these across a field to my friends? Would I STAND THERE AND TRY TO CATCH ONE?

I'm beginning to suspect that more people are injured annually with fireworks than firearms. You can see how well legislation is at controlling fireworks.....

In the post you quoted, I didn't mention the gun once. I mentioned responsibility. I'm wound up that everyone jumps to defend gun ownership instead of admitting there is a problem with the responsibility surrounding them and suggesting some constructive means through which we can make the situation better.

If I misunderstood, I apologize. Your ealier posts gave me that impression that you, too, felt outlawing guns and/or LEGISLATION was the answer.

3 charged in boy's death at Massachusetts gun expo

Christopher Bizilj, 8, was shooting at a pumpkin when the Uzi micro-submachine gun recoiled.

Associated Press
December 5, 2008

Reporting from Springfield, Mass. -- Three men, including a small-town police chief, were indicted Thursday on involuntary manslaughter counts in the death of an 8-year-old who accidentally shot himself in the head with an Uzi at a gun fair.

The Westfield Sportsman's Club in western Massachusetts, where the gun expo was held, also was charged.

Dist. Atty. William Bennett said the child, Christopher Bizilj of Ashford, Conn., was supervised by an uncertified 15-year-old boy, even though an ad for the Oct. 26 expo promised that certified instructors would oversee shooters.

Christopher was firing at a pumpkin when he lost control of the 9mm micro-submachine gun because of the recoil.

Pelham Police Chief Edward Fleury was charged because he owns COP Firearms & Training, the sponsor of the Machine Gun Shoot and Firearms Expo.

Two men who brought the automatic weapon to the show, Carl Guiffre of Hartford, Conn., and Domenico Spano, of New Milford, Conn., also were indicted.

Fleury and the club also were indicted on four counts each of furnishing a machine gun to a minor.

Gift cards for guns in Compton
10:02 PM PT, Dec 4 2008

The mean streets of L.A. might get a bit kinder under a police program that offers a little holiday spending spree for residents who turn in guns.

The Los Angeles County sheriff's station in Compton, in conjunction with the city of Compton, and other local organizations are hosting a firearm surrender program called "Gifts for Guns."

The unique program provides an opportunity for local families to surrender firearms anonymously at the sheriff's station in exchange for a $100 holiday gift card to Ralph's, Target or Best Buy. For assault weapons, $200 gift cards are being offered.

No questions are asked of those who participate.

Over the Thanksgiving holiday weekend when the program was launched, 590 guns and two hand grenades were turned in to the sheriff's station. More than $55,000 in gift cards were handed out in exchange.

The next exchange will be at 10 a.m. Saturday and Sunday in the Ralph's parking lot at 280 E. Compton Blvd.

Next headline will read "Would be thief gets shot trying to steal guns. Apparantly, he needed the money for a drug purchase and thought the gun buy back program would furnish the needed cash. The gun owner obviously wanted to keep his guns!" [end of news artcle]

Probably a futile attempt at humor, but I thought it amusing and thats all that counts right?

OTOH, a buy back program is not a bad idea to try to remove guns that are not wanted/needed/etc which will reduce the incidence/possiblility of an accident.

Disclaimer: Yes I have guns (long guns, no handguns) and love to shoot. I teach my family how to handle them and use them. Handguns are not necessary for the average person, but I won't tell you that YOU can't own one. I would support a requiremtent of a training course before you can get one along with a license. If you need protection, my 20 guage will do the trick and I have a much better chance of hitting you. But my better defense is my dog... just try to sneak up on me, or show up at night!

Tough situation, I can see both sides and there is pros and cons either way. BUT as said many times, its not the sane/responsible people you need to worry about, its the crazies. They will use whatever is at hand to do what they want.

Dang I hate the cold...and we're not as cold as most of you guys.

MERRY CHRISTMAS ALL AND HAPPY HOLIDAYS!!!! I pray for health and happyness for you and your families where ever you are!

Clayton