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Re: great 2nd amendment video [Re: Seeker] #162024
12/05/08 11:37 AM
12/05/08 11:37 AM
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 915
Dublin, Ireland
Dermot Offline
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Dermot  Offline
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Originally Posted by Seeker
To all those living outside the US that feel compelled to comment on our gun policies in the US read this:
http://www.wftv.com/mostpopular/18201932/detail.html

Click on this link (or cut and paste) to read about the brutal beating and rape of a 70 year old woman in Orlando this week...

This is a perfect example of a home invasion...When I read/hear about these thing on a regular bases it really pisses me off that some of my own country men try to keep us from being able to defend ourselves with handguns...when someone from thousands of miles a way...who doesn't have a clue of what they are talking about starts preaching their message of ignorance about gun control it just...well...I think I will stop right there...

Are you really saying that the 70 year old woman would have been safe if she had a handgun ? frown If an incident like that was happening every day to thousands of American citizens, it would not make the news - most people are safe in their homes - but you think that an incident like this justifies arming every American with a hand gun.
Having so many hand guns readily available to people causes more deaths than it could ever save.
Pete asked Rolf why he was getting so worked up about the American policy on guns. I can't speak for Rolf, but most people outside the USA find it difficult to understand, in this modern age, why Americans defent their "right to bear arms" when all it does is cause so many deaths - see the statistics.
In Europe we have "house invasions", rapes and murders, but we do not think that it justifies arming the civilian population. We know that there would be more innocent people killed than rapists and murderers.


Dermot
Catapult 265
-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: great 2nd amendment video [Re: Dermot] #162025
12/05/08 11:51 AM
12/05/08 11:51 AM
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
waterbug_wpb Offline
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It may not be as much an argument about "the right to bear arms" as it is an argument about the government taking away any "right" that was previously granted.

The gov't took away our "right" to consume alcohol (I think today is the anniversary of the lifting of prohibition, btw) a long time ago, and that didn't go over so well...

I personally like the freedoms I may exercise in USA. It is dissapointing when I see these freedoms taken away abrubptly or slowly... Especially when I don't see a particular benefit resulting from the loss of whatever right is taken away.

In a vague comparison, consider my right to privacy vs. government surveillance. I see their need to know what's going on to protect me, but don't really like the idea of them listening in on me (not that I have anything intelligent to say, anyway - that's going to be one bored dude that has to listen in on my stuff).

How do you like all those cameras in public places (I'm thinking of Britan specifically)? You've probably gotten used to them, but that subject is a huge controversy in US.

Even something like red-light cameras to catch law-breakers faces stiff resistance from the population. Not sure why they do...

So, if red-light cameras reduce fatalities, why isn't it a law to have them at every intersection? Surely this will save lives, no?


Jay

Re: great 2nd amendment video [Re: waterbug_wpb] #162029
12/05/08 12:48 PM
12/05/08 12:48 PM
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 2,074
Northfield,NH USA
bullswan Offline OP
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Originally Posted by waterbug_wpb
It may not be as much an argument about "the right to bear arms" as it is an argument about the government taking away any "right" that was previously granted.

The gov't took away our "right" to consume alcohol (I think today is the anniversary of the lifting of prohibition, btw) a long time ago, and that didn't go over so well...

I personally like the freedoms I may exercise in USA. It is dissapointing when I see these freedoms taken away abrubptly or slowly... Especially when I don't see a particular benefit resulting from the loss of whatever right is taken away.

In a vague comparison, consider my right to privacy vs. government surveillance. I see their need to know what's going on to protect me, but don't really like the idea of them listening in on me (not that I have anything intelligent to say, anyway - that's going to be one bored dude that has to listen in on my stuff).

How do you like all those cameras in public places (I'm thinking of Britan specifically)? You've probably gotten used to them, but that subject is a huge controversy in US.

Even something like red-light cameras to catch law-breakers faces stiff resistance from the population. Not sure why they do...

So, if red-light cameras reduce fatalities, why isn't it a law to have them at every intersection? Surely this will save lives, no?


VERY good.

Dermot, do you also have a problem understanding why so many were upset about the government listening in on phone conversations (as reported this was ONLY conversations originating in Muslim countries to someone in the US? You can make the same argument as you did with the guns, namely that you will save more lives IF the government happens to hear conversations about terrorist activities.

How would that type of government activity be treated in Ireland?

It is TOTALLY about the loss or erosion of freedoms.


The nice part about being a pessimist is that you are constantly being either proven right or pleasantly surprised. - George Will
"It's not that liberals aren't smart, it's just that so much of what they know isn't so" -Ronald Reagan
Re: great 2nd amendment video [Re: waterbug_wpb] #162030
12/05/08 12:54 PM
12/05/08 12:54 PM
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 915
Dublin, Ireland
Dermot Offline
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Dublin, Ireland
In the UK and Ireland the police "on the beat" are not armed. Because of the times we live in, we have to have special back up armed units that can arrive at an incident if necessary. The police themselves have always voted not to be armed, because they believe that there would be an escalation of incidences where guns were used.
I believe that CCTV is accepted and actually very popular over here. If there has been an incident like a robery, damage to a parked car, a fight, anything you can think of - the first reaction is "Did you check for CCTV" People will check with local banks, shops, filling stations etc. We have a "Crime Watch" program every few weeks where they show CCTV footage of roberies and many criminals are recognised and reported to the police. If you are law abiding you have nothing to fear.
Someone mentioned Hollywood a few days ago. I think that many Americans really believe that what they see in the movies is happening all over the Country, and this has them very jumpy.
You have a population of over 300m. Naturally some nasty things will happen - but most people will never come into contact with any of these crazies.


Dermot
Catapult 265
Re: great 2nd amendment video [Re: waterbug_wpb] #162031
12/05/08 01:01 PM
12/05/08 01:01 PM
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 291
J
JACKFLASH Offline
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Originally Posted by waterbug_wpb



Even something like red-light cameras to catch law-breakers faces stiff resistance from the population. Not sure why they do...

So, if red-light cameras reduce fatalities, why isn't it a law to have them at every intersection? Surely this will save lives, no?


Red light cameras are about making money for the city. The "fine" you pay does not even go on your record. It is all about cash. Ironically, in the great city of Houston, where I live and where they just installed some of those camera's, they have had an INCREASE in traffic accidents at those intersections since the installation of the cameras. My guess is that people who should have gone are now breaking hard to to try to stop only to be hit from behind. Althoug the same data did indicate a reduction in traffic related fatalities at the same intersections. All that data came from the City of Houston. And the reason for my initial comment, the City of Houston made 265k the first week the cameras were turned on.


Collin Casey
Infusion Platform + C2 rig and rags = one fast cookie
Re: great 2nd amendment video [Re: JACKFLASH] #162032
12/05/08 01:28 PM
12/05/08 01:28 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline
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Originally Posted by JACKFLASH
Originally Posted by waterbug_wpb



Even something like red-light cameras to catch law-breakers faces stiff resistance from the population. Not sure why they do...

So, if red-light cameras reduce fatalities, why isn't it a law to have them at every intersection? Surely this will save lives, no?


Red light cameras are about making money for the city. The "fine" you pay does not even go on your record. It is all about cash. Ironically, in the great city of Houston, where I live and where they just installed some of those camera's, they have had an INCREASE in traffic accidents at those intersections since the installation of the cameras. My guess is that people who should have gone are now breaking hard to to try to stop only to be hit from behind. Althoug the same data did indicate a reduction in traffic related fatalities at the same intersections. All that data came from the City of Houston. And the reason for my initial comment, the City of Houston made 265k the first week the cameras were turned on.


When they started installing those in our town, it was discovered that the company that builds the cameras was providing them for free....in exchange for a percentage of the money tickets generated.


Jake Kohl
Re: great 2nd amendment video [Re: Jake] #162035
12/05/08 02:16 PM
12/05/08 02:16 PM
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
waterbug_wpb Offline
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While I personally don't mind cameras in public spaces for the very reasons Dermot indicated (No problem if you're not doing anything wrong), I'm sure there are plenty of people here and abroad that aren't so happy about someone "poking around in my business", even if what they are doing isn't wrong...

Interesting question regarding the cameras. Have they significantly REDUCED crime, or have they merely increased the capture/conviction rate?

And for the red-light camera discussion, if the monetary gain were out of the equation, would you vote to install them at intersections?

Even if fender-benders go up as a result, the reduction in fatalities is worth it, right?

And auto body shops must be laughing all the way to the bank, too....


Jay

Re: great 2nd amendment video [Re: JACKFLASH] #162038
12/05/08 03:13 PM
12/05/08 03:13 PM
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 5,582
“an island in the Pacifi...
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Originally Posted by JACKFLASH
Red light cameras are about making money for the city.

http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/001/078ftoqz.asp


US Sail Level 2 Instructor
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Re: great 2nd amendment video [Re: hobie1616] #162039
12/05/08 03:38 PM
12/05/08 03:38 PM
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
waterbug_wpb Offline
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Naples, FL
so the point is, we're all bad drivers?

If this technology was more effective (and it will be with RFIDs on cars), would it not discourage people from driving carelessly/wrecklessly? Would this not reduce crashes and injuries?

Back to the public surveillance cameras... Would it bother you if the government used that data to keep an eye on your movements (even if they are legitimate and legal)?

Does it bother you if the government knew how many scoops of sugar you take in your coffee?

Even worse, if the gov't was contracting this surveillance out to a company, would it bother you that THEY know what you're up to? Like if they sold your data to a sugar-substitute marketing company?


Jay

Re: great 2nd amendment video [Re: waterbug_wpb] #162040
12/05/08 03:59 PM
12/05/08 03:59 PM
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 2,074
Northfield,NH USA
bullswan Offline OP
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Are you "concerned" by the ability of the FASTPASS toll-transponders tracking your whereabouts? In Maine, they time your passage through one toll booth and compare it to the time through another toll booth to determine your speed. Then they mail you a ticket.

How about the new procedure of checking your cellphone records at the time of a crash to see if you were "distracted"? (I wonder how they know you were talking on it and not a passenger?)



The nice part about being a pessimist is that you are constantly being either proven right or pleasantly surprised. - George Will
"It's not that liberals aren't smart, it's just that so much of what they know isn't so" -Ronald Reagan
Re: great 2nd amendment video [Re: bullswan] #162042
12/05/08 04:26 PM
12/05/08 04:26 PM
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
waterbug_wpb Offline
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Originally Posted by bullswan

How about the new procedure of checking your cellphone records at the time of a crash to see if you were "distracted"? (I wonder how they know you were talking on it and not a passenger?)



because they can listen to the conversation.... smile

Do you think the internet is truly "free"? I'll bet lotsa people are watching us. I know China can do it with their population. Why can't people do it in the 'free' world? Because we're nicer?


Now, before everyone cubbyholes me as a conspiracy theorist, I'm merely pointing out that technology exists to perform these functions. Whether entities (good or bad) use them (or are using them) is not my point.


Last edited by waterbug_wpb; 12/05/08 04:30 PM.

Jay

Re: great 2nd amendment video [Re: waterbug_wpb] #162044
12/05/08 04:56 PM
12/05/08 04:56 PM
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 291
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JACKFLASH Offline
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So....you want conspiracy theory. In the US bills a have a metalic strip in them. Stores have sensors at the exits that "monitor theft", but I hear that they also count your money in your wallet. Why you ask, because the banks are trying to get everybody off of cash and on to plastic because they make money every time your card is swiped. I don't personally believe that BS but I had a boss that did. As a result he would pull the strip out of every bill he ever got. What a nut job.


Collin Casey
Infusion Platform + C2 rig and rags = one fast cookie
Re: great 2nd amendment video [Re: bullswan] #162048
12/05/08 05:28 PM
12/05/08 05:28 PM
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,884
Detroit, MI
mbounds Offline
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Originally Posted by bullswan
Are you "concerned" by the ability of the FASTPASS toll-transponders tracking your whereabouts? In Maine, they time your passage through one toll booth and compare it to the time through another toll booth to determine your speed. Then they mail you a ticket.


Wrong again. First of all, Maine uses EZ PASS, not FAST PASS. Secondly, NO STATE issues speeding tickets based on entry / exit time on a toll road.

Here's the reference: Snopes

A traffic officer needs to be involved in catching speeders to verify who is driving the vehicle. Otherwise, an owner of a vehicle who happens to have several other family members who drive the vehicle could get a speeding ticket for what another driver did, or even worse you could get ticketed for what your friend does while driving your vehicle.

Besides, they could have been doing this years ago - way before EZ PASS. When you get on the Turnpike, the toll card has the time printed on it, and it's probably encoded in the magstripe on the back. They could station cops at every exit point to write you a ticket when you get off and the toll card is read. But they don't. Because they can't.

Tinfoil hat alert.
[Linked Image]


Re: great 2nd amendment video [Re: mbounds] #162049
12/05/08 05:35 PM
12/05/08 05:35 PM
Joined: Sep 2002
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Roanoke Island ,N.C.
Team_Cat_Fever Offline
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Originally Posted by mbounds
Originally Posted by bullswan
Are you "concerned" by the ability of the FASTPASS toll-transponders tracking your whereabouts? In Maine, they time your passage through one toll booth and compare it to the time through another toll booth to determine your speed. Then they mail you a ticket.


Wrong again. First of all, Maine uses EZ PASS, not FAST PASS. Secondly, NO STATE issues speeding tickets based on entry / exit time on a toll road.

Here's the reference: Snopes

A traffic officer needs to be involved in catching speeders to verify who is driving the vehicle. Otherwise, an owner of a vehicle who happens to have several other family members who drive the vehicle could get a speeding ticket for what another driver did, or even worse you could get ticketed for what your friend does while driving your vehicle.

Besides, they could have been doing this years ago - way before EZ PASS. When you get on the Turnpike, the toll card has the time printed on it, and it's probably encoded in the magstripe on the back. They could station cops at every exit point to write you a ticket when you get off and the toll card is read. But they don't. Because they can't.

Tinfoil hat alert.
[Linked Image]



Wrong, They do the turnpike thing. I know 2 folks who got tickets on the Jersey tpk. that way. They weren't mailed, there was a cop there.

Is that the new Hobie anti-electrocution helmet? I heard it's made from old comp tips.


"I said, now, I said ,pay attention boy!"

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If a man is to be obsessed by something.... I suppose a boat is as good as anything... perhaps a bit better than most.
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Re: great 2nd amendment video [Re: mbounds] #162051
12/05/08 05:40 PM
12/05/08 05:40 PM
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 2,074
Northfield,NH USA
bullswan Offline OP
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Oh my goodness,
EZ pass and Fast pass are the same damn thing, aren't they?
Our NH transponder (I'm not sure which one it is) is what got the ticket.
My wife has a ticket she got for driving in Maine and she got it in the mail. There ARE troopers at every toll but not in every booth obviously but I have no idea if maybe the pictures they take of your car makes the difference? NO IDEA how it works.

A few years ago (late 80's maybe) I got a speeding ticket by aircraft and it was mailed to me. Come to think of it, I don't know how they knew I was driving the car then either.....



The nice part about being a pessimist is that you are constantly being either proven right or pleasantly surprised. - George Will
"It's not that liberals aren't smart, it's just that so much of what they know isn't so" -Ronald Reagan
Re: great 2nd amendment video [Re: Team_Cat_Fever] #162055
12/05/08 07:11 PM
12/05/08 07:11 PM
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,884
Detroit, MI
mbounds Offline
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Detroit, MI
Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever
They weren't mailed, there was a cop there.
That's different. Are you sure they weren't caught speeding through the EZ PASS? That's infinitely more likely to happen.

Originally Posted by bullswan
Our NH transponder (I'm not sure which one it is) is what got the ticket.
My wife has a ticket she got for driving in Maine and she got it in the mail.
Same thing. Show me a copy of the ticket and I'll believe you. Otherwise, it's just anecdotal BS.

Oh, and Colin? There's a polyester stripe in currency, not magnetic. There's magnetic ink on the bills (just like there is on checks), but you can't read it from a distance, anymore than you could read cassette tape from a distance.

My whole point is - you guys spout off urban legends and conspiracy theories as if they were facts - which does nothing to improve your credibility when attempting to conduct an intelligent conversation.

Re: great 2nd amendment video [Re: mbounds] #162057
12/05/08 07:55 PM
12/05/08 07:55 PM
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 291
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JACKFLASH Offline
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Posts: 291
Originally Posted by mbounds


Oh, and Colin? There's a polyester stripe in currency, not magnetic. There's magnetic ink on the bills (just like there is on checks), but you can't read it from a distance, anymore than you could read cassette tape from a distance.



As I said that theory was from a former boss. I believe I even called it "BS" in my original post. I personally don't subscribe to very many conspiracy theories.


Collin Casey
Infusion Platform + C2 rig and rags = one fast cookie
Re: great 2nd amendment video [Re: JACKFLASH] #162058
12/05/08 08:26 PM
12/05/08 08:26 PM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,118
Northfield Mn
Karl_Brogger Offline
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Northfield Mn
I'm waiting for some jack hole to pass a law saying the Gov't can monitor OnStar and just mail you a ticket.

I need to go watch 1984 to sooth my nerves.

Matt- Next time I see you, I'm bringing my tinfoil helmet, want me to bring my spare? grin








Holy CRAP! Anyone else see that oil closed at $40.81 a barrel today?

Last edited by Karl_Brogger; 12/05/08 08:42 PM.
Re: great 2nd amendment video [Re: Karl_Brogger] #162106
12/06/08 02:22 PM
12/06/08 02:22 PM
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 917
Issaquah, WA, USA
H17cat Offline
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H17cat  Offline
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Posts: 917
Issaquah, WA, USA
[b]I'll keep my Guns,
Freedom,& money..
You can keep the "Change"
[/b]


"WE'RE SENDING A MESSAGE TO WASHINGTON BY GIVING THIS HOT NEW STICKER AWAY FOR FREE! Our God-given rights as Americans are protected by the brave members of our armed forces and guaranteed by the US Constitution! Let everyone know where you stand by proudly displaying this powerful new bumper sticker".

May agree but, I will NOT be getting this bumper sticker, sure fire way to have your car tagged in this area.

Re: great 2nd amendment video [Re: H17cat] #162107
12/06/08 03:01 PM
12/06/08 03:01 PM
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 5,558
Key Largo, FL & Put-in-Bay, OH...
Mary Offline
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Key Largo, FL & Put-in-Bay, OH...
It's hard to think of any bumper sticker these days that isn't going to offend SOMEbody. frown

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