Shouldnt be too much of an issue adding a bridle foil to the front, only gives performance increase in that it allows a larger jib to be used (as well as giving an almost negligible lift force to the bows), so makes no difference for cat rigged, and as long as people continue to use standard jib, theres no performance increase there as well, and yes i agree, it could drastically improve the survivability of wooden boats, which in the long run is only going to serve to help the class, by keeping more boats on the water, and giving boat builders and 'small budget' sailors more reasons to choose the class.

Had a look at Nacra Bridle Foils, the one for the 5.0 was $500+, think it would be possible to just go down to an aluminium worker and get something simple made up, no need for a NACA foil to give extra lift at the bows like on the nacras (thought if i was desperate for that extra lift i could just make a "cover" for the aluminium tube shaped into a foil out of balsa or foam with maybe a layer of fibre glass over the top for strength, could even use the balsa wing sections from a cheap model/rc plane, the only real reason for the foil give the amount of lift it would produce would be to offset some of the weight of the bridle foil it self), just need something that will easily redistribute load, i know i can just use a high bridle for cat rigged, but id quite like an alternative solution to the sloop bridle for when i wish to take it out with a crew, as despite taking it out sloop rigged numerous times without detriment, i just realised that ive always done so using the cat forestays in addition to the jib and bridle, so to be honest im not too keen about the sloop bridle by it self, which would be a necessity once the spinnaker is setup, as spinnaker+forestays dont work for obvious reasons, which i guess is the whole issue behind this, setting up a single forestay for use with the spinnaker without putting too much sideways load on the hulls, hence the high bridle, however the high bridle doesnt allow the jib to be used.

Can anyway please specify whether the use of a bridle arrangement similar to a nacra bridle foil would breach any class rules? Not that us mossie sailors up here in queensland really do much in the way of class racing ... yet.

Hey there,

Well I learnt something, never realised the foil was to add lift !
Could a section of old eliptical mast do the trick in lieu of buying a Nacra item - not keen on having a Nacra piece on my cat.
I agree that in Qld not much of an issue with class rules at present but would be good to have compliant rig otherwise have to change to race in titles etc which could be a hassle.

What sort of section is required for this - could a thick wall round section from aluminium supplier suffice?

Have we got off topic here? Maybe have to start a new topic regarding sloop bridle.

Should catch up soon McccG - any races up at Bribie over xmas / Jan?

Cheers,

Lift certainly isnt the major point of the bridle foil, from my understanding the main purpose is to redistribute the load from the forestay, the fact that it was designed to be a foil (an object shaped to provide differing airflow over the top and bottom surface creating lift based on the Bernoulli principle) was just nacra trying to be fancy, selling point, being in my last year of aeronautical and space engineering at uni i can easy say that the lift it provides is virtually negligible, at high boat speeds, 15+ knots, id guess the lift it provides would probably only just account for the weight of the bridle and foil it self, which isnt much, now if the foil was lowered into the water, then that would be a whole other story... Hydrofoil.

I know weight is important, but honestly, accounting for that kind of weight is like around the world skippers who cut tooth brushes in half to save weight. In my opinion, inexperienced as i am, i believe the gains made by reducing such small amounts of weight and reduced drag from windage is something only people who have reached the pinnacle of their sailing and racing abilities should worry about, if you arent one of those people, then dont bother, unless its of no major effort, as your better off putting effort into becoming a better sailor.
Thats what im trying to focus on anyway. Ive always believed a good sailor on a bad boat will beat a bad sailor on a good boat anyday.

Bribie has finished up their sailing for the season and the next race isnt untill febuary, its not a terrible active club at the moment, with only 1-2 races per month and none over dec/jan, most of the members are retirees who sail trailor sailors more on a social basis than a racing one, however we do have a small number of members still passionate about racing and younger members like me self bringing new life into the club, our cat fleet (who make up the majority of those interested in racing as opposed to social sailing, after all our boats were built to race, not to social sail, and thats what we bought them for) is gradually growing, so the future is looking brighter.

I will however most likely be racing at either Humpybong or Lake Samsonvale, which are both mostly cat racing clubs, in fact Samsonvale is almost exclusively cats, both with a large number of very very good catamaran sailors, many of which compete at a national and/or international level. However they do mostly comprise of A-Class, F18s and Taipains, so its hard slog racing against (behind) these far more experienced sailors in faster boats, but its a good learning experience. Though both clubs do have a few 14 footers such as maricats, calypsos and hobbie 14s (who are very good sailors in their classes mind you) which offer good racing, despite their "slower" boats.

Let me know when u get your mossie, and ill let you know where im racing, will definately try to get down to Cleveland on the odd occasion over the summer, and if i can have my way, will be racing every sunday that a race is on at either humpybong or samsonvale. Humpybong tend to race every sunday, and samsonvale every 2nd sunday, however i think both clubs have about 2 weeks off over christmas. Humpybong however does easily get blown out, as the waves their tend to stand very high, and races are usually cancelled there on anything 20knts and over, so if Humpybong gets a high wind warning Samsonvale is were ill be assuming they are racing.
Only thing with Samsonvale, is they have a locked gate, as the club is located in a national park area, so you need to either be there when members are arriving (usually between 9-10 am) or give them a call and get someone to drive out to the gate to unlock it. However they are an extremely friendly club and its great racing there when the wind is up, flat and very fast.

Hey McG,

Will give you a hoy about sailing, I expect to have mossie up here this weekend. Would be great to get out for some good friendly competition.

Have done a little homework on a bridle re mossie rules - these items are taken from class rules specifications -

13.5 The bridle height shall be a minimum of 380 mm above the deck line. The measurement will be a vertical measurement to the centre of the bridle ring from a straight edge laid across the decks at the bridle attachment points.

13.6 Struts, stays or devices which limit the natural fore and aft movement of the forestay and forestay strop are prohibited (jib luff tension device excluded).

13.7 There shall be no other standing rigging.

From my reading a straight bridle fixed to hulls with the forestay attached would not be OK.

I believe a bar positioned across between the strops that sits just above hulls may be possible as long as does not restrict the natural movement of the forestay.

This could limit compression load on hulls while still fitting within class rules.

Does any one have a comment?

Also agree completely... 'a good sailor on a bad boat will beat a bad sailor on a good boat anyday'....

Cheers,

As far as the rules go this is pretty simple. There is no beam of the sort you describe in the original plans or the "building rules and restrictions", and it is not specifically de-restricted in rule 19, therfore it is not allowed.

The Mosquito is a restricted class rather than a development (or box-rule) class. That means the rules say what you can do, and anything else is out.

Anyway that's not to say anyone is going to be too bothered if you put a bar across the chainplates on your boat to take the bridle loads. But if you ever took the boat to a titles you may be asked to remove it for the event.

The question is whether there is any point to doing this. Mosquitoes are designed and built to be sailed the way they are.

If your hulls are showing signs of collapse on the inside face near the front beam (or in the deck) then you are heading for a major failure anyway - even if you do add a bridle-strut. In this case the hulls really belong at the local tip. You would be taking a risk using them, and it's no fun breaking stuff and hoping to be rescued. There are plenty more cheap ply Mosquito hulls around.

On the other hand if your hulls have been stored dry and the timber sounds hard when you tap it and looks even with no bumps, splits or ripples, then don't fiddle with it, just go sailing and enjoy it.

Tim,

Yeh, fair comment.

Was just concerned that the addition of spinnaker added more load than the hulls were designed for, especially the ply ones. The cats were not, as I understand, designed originally to carry a kite.

Just trying to avoid ending up in the drink and a major repair cost instead of being able to go sailing.

Cheers,

Yeah the issue isnt so much trying to keep a broken boat alive tim, and trying to develop a solution to boats with rippled hulls, but a method to stop the hulls getting to the point where they ripple in the first place, by either reducing the load they are subjected to or giving them greater support and consequent ability to handle that load. My boat is currently in great condition, and thats the way id like to keep it for a long time, and if setting up a cross member at the jib bridle will help keep my boat from degrading to the point that it gets ripples in the wood then its something that is well worth considering. Its not about devloping new technologies to make the boat faster as in a development class, or band-aid solutions to boats that are already too far gone, its about protecting our investments using preventative methods to reduce the risk of them needing to be fixed/replaced in the first place, and yes, whilst the boats were built and designed to "handle" the forces they encounter, even the best built of boats will gradually degrade over time due to the forces it encounters. Helping slow down that "aging process" if you will, will only serve to increase the life of boats and keep them on the water, in a strong and sound conidition for longer, which from my perspective, being someone who cannont afford to buy a new boat every second year like alot of high level, and sponsored racers, getting as much mileage out of my boat as possible is of quite a high priority, and im sure many other current mossie sailors and/or people considering buying a mosquito, be it for merely club level racing or national level, who dont have the deepest pockets, would or do feel the same way.

Another possible solution, is it possible to run a high bridle from a cat rigged boat on a sloop rigged boat in somewhat of a duel bridle configuration, have the high bridle take the tension of the mast and be the actual forestay, and lower jib bridle setup to only take the forces of the jib? or is the jib the main culprit in the sideways forces the hulls encounter?

Has anyone ever tried using a spinnaker with the normal cat rigged "dual forestays", how much do the forestays limit the kite? does the kite need to be sheeted in enough that the forestays get in the way? or do they get in the way of or catch the kite during jibes?

It's the mainsheet tension which is transfered straight through to the forestay that creates the tension in the bridle. The actual luff tension on the jib is negligible in comparison. The F16s use a system with a high bridle and a solid bar going down from that to the spinnaker pole (about 500-600mm). The jib is attached at the spinnaker pole.

A simpler solution than this, or a beam, is to simply put a longer bridle on the boat. From a performance point of view, the jib does not have to be at the lowest position possible. You could raise the bridle and shorten the forestay by 100mm, which would make an enormous difference to the side loads. You would also need to move the jib sheeting points back some to match (assuming they are in the right place now).



Yes, Red Alert had twin forestays. The spinnaker got tangled on the stays when trying to gybe. Peter changed it to a high (cat-rig) bridle and used a separate spectra bridle to hold the chute and pole in place. This worked fine.

I'm still not convinced there is any need to do anything about the bridle loads on a timber Mozzie. There are plenty of timber sloops racing at the top level, some with heavy crews that put a lot of load on the hulls and there really is no problem with hulls breaking.

What causes hulls to break is not so much the amount of time they've spent under load or the size of the loads, but the amount of water and rot that has got into the plywood. Also stringers or frames that have broken free are a problem.

Hey there,

Tim - thanks for comments - I will have a good check of my hulls and just go sailing I think. I am not a heavy weight and neither will be my crew - they are my sons who are 10 & 12.

Some earlier comments had me concerned.

McG - have sent you a message about sailing at Humpybong on Dec 21st if you are interested let me know.

Cheers,

Sounds good to me, ill be there.

Kool, lock it in eddie......

Not sure of start time but briefing at 10.15am.

Cheers,

Just a question, would it be difficult to make your own snuffer ring/chute mouth out of fibreglass? can the dimensions be obtained from anywhere? or would i be better off getting one made professionally? Also whats the diameter needed on the sock, i know from greg goodall who made my spinnaker, it needs to be around 1.9 metres long for my spinnaker, but what kind of radius/diameter, i know theres a trade off, smaller bag=less windage but tighter spinnaker: harder to raise/retreave; larger bag=more windage, but easier flowing spinnaker.

Thank you.
Michael.

Here's some dimensions for the chute

Thank you very much Tim, for all your help and advice, its greatly appreciated.

Whats the bottom picture of? side view?

hey,
just to let you guys know that i made a mould for the fibreglass shute, there $75

Yeah thanks matt, i have a bit of fibreglass lying around, and like a bit of diy, so ill have a go at it my self first, but if it doesnt turn out good enough, which it probably wont, ill definately get onto about you one, what do you think the postage for a chute to be sent up to queensland would come to? Also, just double checking, when you say you have a mould, there $75, are you saying ur selling the chutes made from your mould for $75, or your selling the actual mould for $75?

Cheers.
Michael.

If Matt's offering to make a chute for $75 I would go for it. It takes a lot of time to build a plug, then a mould, then the chute. Being such a tight curve I found it not that easy to separate the plug from the mould and then the chute from the mould.

The drawing at the bottom of the picture is the cross-section. It also needs a substantial lip built up near the edge to keep the sock on.

lol nar not the mould, just the chute, and ill find out the postage

matt
have you done my chute yet if so let me know as i would like to swag up the bridle over xmas

gordon

Hi,

Have just ordered my chute throat from Frecheville in Vic and it cost more than $75.00, that is good value.

McG - I may not be starting on Sun at Humpybong - just a few repairs to complete to boat which I may struggle to finish by Sun. Got a bit of wear along bottom of hulls which needs the glass tape relaid and a beam bolt which is loose and proving difficult to replace.

Was so looking forward to getting on the water but want to fix these things first. If I miss will catch up with you in new year.

Cheers,