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Kris, Nacra F16? #168125
02/13/09 02:05 AM
02/13/09 02:05 AM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 4,451
West coast of Norway
Rolf_Nilsen Offline OP

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Kris,

just noticed your signature. What boat is that? Modified Nacra I guess, but what was the basic platform and what did you do to it? How is the result?

Just curious.

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Re: Kris, Nacra F16? [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #168128
02/13/09 02:46 AM
02/13/09 02:46 AM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 48
Belgium (Oostende)
Kathleen Offline
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Ha I was thinking the same thing yesterday when I saw the signature. So Kris, please tell, I am also curious!


Falcon F16 - BEL666
Boats: TheBoatShop.be
Stories: bladef16.blogspot.com
Re: Kris, Nacra F16? [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #168145
02/13/09 09:33 AM
02/13/09 09:33 AM
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 606
Maryland
Kris Hathaway Offline
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Kris Hathaway  Offline
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D'oh! That's what I get for not fully updating my signature.


Kris Hathaway
Re: Kris, Nacra F16? [Re: Kris Hathaway] #168193
02/13/09 12:56 PM
02/13/09 12:56 PM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 4,451
West coast of Norway
Rolf_Nilsen Offline OP

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Ah, I see.

Was there ever a project to make a Nacra conform to te F16 envelope?

Re: Kris, Nacra F16? [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #168202
02/13/09 02:24 PM
02/13/09 02:24 PM
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 606
Maryland
Kris Hathaway Offline
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Not publically. My opinion and I'm preaching to the F-16 choir is that Performance and Hobie do not have to......yet because the F-16 market is relatively small. It would only erode their current models that fill similar needs, F-17 & FX-1. Hopefully, the F-16 concept will develop like the F-18 has become the 18' standard. Having an existing and recognized manufaturer(AHPC)jump in with a NEW F-16 specific design helps. Of course, they were already in the F-16 market via the Taipan 4.9 and has exhibited good business sense to protect/improve their market share. Having a US manufacturer that is not resting on their laurels by introducing an improved design draws excitement in the US and F-16 arena also.

I believe, the days of product differentiation with manufacturer specific classes are coming to an end. The market is/has shrinking/shrunk with two distinct market segments, pleasure and racing. There will be SOME exceptions (no absolutes) like the Wave, Hobie 16, and possibly the Nacra 20. The racing segment does best with formula classes and will benefit from class-to-class ratings verses specific model-to-model ratings. It would not surprise me if Hobie jumps in first maybe even through an acquisition and Performance will have to follow shortly thereafter.

Getting off soapbox and strapping on flame suit. Must be Friday the 13th.


Kris Hathaway
Re: Kris, Nacra F16? [Re: Kris Hathaway] #168203
02/13/09 02:48 PM
02/13/09 02:48 PM
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pgp Offline
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"It would not surprise me if Hobie jumps in first maybe even through an acquisition and Performance will have to follow shortly thereafter."

You'd think. Right now all they would have to do is re-badge an existing product.


Pete Pollard
Blade 702

'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.

Re: Kris, Nacra F16? [Re: pgp] #168214
02/13/09 05:09 PM
02/13/09 05:09 PM
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 404
Chattanooga, TN
Joanna Offline
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Kris-Maryland? F16? You need to bring Ed and John and come to Spring Fever! With Jody and us that would be a fleet.....


Joanna

Blade F16
"Too Sharp to Touch"
Re: Kris, Nacra F16? [Re: Joanna] #168221
02/13/09 06:27 PM
02/13/09 06:27 PM
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pgp Offline
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Are any of the Vipers coming to SF?


Pete Pollard
Blade 702

'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.

Re: Kris, Nacra F16? [Re: pgp] #168234
02/13/09 08:44 PM
02/13/09 08:44 PM
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 439
Memphis, TN
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mikeborden Offline
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I might, but It's going to depend on work and a couple of other things.

I'm seriously thinking about it though.


Mike


Viper USA 132

1984 Hobie 18
Re: Kris, Nacra F16? [Re: Joanna] #168253
02/14/09 07:12 AM
02/14/09 07:12 AM
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 606
Maryland
Kris Hathaway Offline
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Originally Posted by Joanna
Kris-Maryland? F16? You need to bring Ed and John and come to Spring Fever! With Jody and us that would be a fleet.....


Joanna, wish my calendar was open. Unfortunately, I'm out of the country then. November's GC IS on my calendar. How many is a fleet for SF, 5?


Kris Hathaway
Re: Kris, Nacra F16? [Re: Kris Hathaway] #168256
02/14/09 08:33 AM
02/14/09 08:33 AM
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 404
Chattanooga, TN
Joanna Offline
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I think so. Still gone for Gulfport too? (it is the next weekend) Maybe come to Columbia or Charlotte? Anyways-have a great season and see you for sure in Nov.


Joanna

Blade F16
"Too Sharp to Touch"
Re: Kris, Nacra F16? [Re: pgp] #168377
02/15/09 10:34 PM
02/15/09 10:34 PM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,118
Northfield Mn
Karl_Brogger Offline
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Originally Posted by pgp
"It would not surprise me if Hobie jumps in first maybe even through an acquisition and Performance will have to follow shortly thereafter."

You'd think. Right now all they would have to do is re-badge an existing product.



With the new iCat, (which isn't an FXone but competes directly with it in market share), I would've figured they would've made that F16 compliant. Originally the talk was that it was just a carbon FXone, but the hull shape isn't the same at all. Seems foolish to me not to, now you just have a boat that just splinters another class. Hack off a foot in length on the iCat, change the sailplan to whatever it needs to be, and add some more resin/carbon to get it up to F16 weight.

I'd buy one.

Re: Kris, Nacra F16? [Re: Karl_Brogger] #168382
02/16/09 05:10 AM
02/16/09 05:10 AM
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North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
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Quote

Hack off a foot in length on the iCat, change the sailplan to whatever it needs to be, and add some more resin/carbon to get it up to F16 weight.




Actually, the vast bulk of the FX-one rig is F16 compliant. The mast and mainsail are F16 compliant in all respects. It is only the jib that is 0.45 sq. mtr too large (15%) in area, its luff length and leech length are full compliant again.

Basically, Hobie could just use the standard FX-one rig and just cut the jib a little smaller (or use the smal crew F18 version of their F18's jib designs). Making the rig F16 compliant is therefor no biggy at all. You could do it right now to any existing FX-one byt recutting the jib.

It was one hidden feature of the F16 rules that we included in the F16 rule set back in 2001. Same applies to the Inter-17 with the exception of the US I-17R's. The latter have very large mainsails that were too far beyond what was practical on an F16.

Additionally, the FX-one hull is not even a foot longer then the F16 hull. only 9 to 10 inches. The biggest difference between the FX-ones and F16 has always been the overall weight (FX being significantly heavier but being compliant that way) and the fitting out of the platform. The superwing alu mast on F16's is just so much better then the very stiff cut-short Tiger F18 mast they use on the FX-ones.

While I don't agree with their stance I do understand their reluctance to enter the F16 segment. What I don't understand is the creation of the icat without making it meaningfully different. Is competition between the two classes so much to be preferred then the competition inside the F16 class ? I don't see why that would be beneficial to Hobie.

Wouter


Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: Kris, Nacra F16? [Re: Wouter] #168427
02/16/09 03:52 PM
02/16/09 03:52 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
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Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline
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Hi Wouter

You are using the term class a bit too broadly.

Yes, Hobie has FX1's out in the market... BUT... do boats on the water equate to a class?...
EG a group of racers who agree on a set of rules, a schedule and go racing.

Hobie tossed the boat out there and it did not catch on with racers. ... EG. the intended market... the US Hobie 17 sailors just were not interested. The recreational market is very different and the FX1 fills the same niche as the F16... eg all purpose one or two up boat.

But since the majority of new USA FX1 owners could care less about racing or racing classes.. the performance differences to F16's or Nacra F17's are meaningless. The few FX1 owners trying to gin up interest in the boat as a race boat are fighting a lonely battle. As a class they are inconsequential. In France, I guess the FX1 class morphed into the F104 class.

So, I don't think you can interpret Hobie EU as undercutting a class by producing a slightly different boat. I think the big builders view the world as having two markets, recreational and performance. Moreover, it's always easier to sell "new and improved".

Since you can race ANY boat if you get enough of them. The race class issue is left up to the market to see what catches on and who get's the class organized with a schedule and turnout.

In the USA (It's taken 10 years for the NAHCA to accept or want to accept the recreational Wave as a racing class despite years of success by Rick White et al). When they introduced the roto boats.. HCA USA made it clear to the class association that the boat was intended for the rec market and the HCA was not obligated to support the class if they did not want to. The Wave owners organized on their own.

I think in the US, a Hobie dealer would look at the Wave, Getaway and FX1 as a reasonable upgrade path for a rec sailor who wanted a new boat. The FX1 did not work so now the new iCat boat will have a chance to compete for some market share. "New and improved" always sounds better then... "join the racing class!" if the new owners want to develop a race class... all the better!

Steve Clark (ex Vanguard boats) pointed out to me that they could make a profit on one of the many new dinghy's that they developed. Making money on a class one design boat was tough because the class wants cheap and resists changes that might save money for the builder. The rec sailor wanted the latest in design for fun recreational sailing and would pay for value. Dealers could sell these recreational boats and the owners got a good value.... He thought that the class was responsible for selling the class od boats he made.

PS... Why do you understand Hobie's reluctance to jump into the F16 class? Overlap with the F18's racing demographic. cost differential for building a lightweight boat? Lack of control over the rules limit's profitability long term? Resistance from Hobie 16 OD class?
















crac.sailregattas.com
Re: Kris, Nacra F16? [Re: Mark Schneider] #168431
02/16/09 05:04 PM
02/16/09 05:04 PM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 4,451
West coast of Norway
Rolf_Nilsen Offline OP

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Hmm, no icon or smiley for "eyes glazed over". Sorry Mark eek

Re: Kris, Nacra F16? [Re: Wouter] #168442
02/16/09 08:10 PM
02/16/09 08:10 PM
Joined: Feb 2005
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Northfield Mn
Karl_Brogger Offline
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Originally Posted by Wouter
What I don't understand is the creation of the icat without making it meaningfully different.
Layout and intended use are identical, but loosing 100 lbs is pretty different. The boat will be a rocket I'm sure, but too close to the FXone for my taste.

If I had my way it would be all formula racing. Screw the handicap stuff. As far as Hobie building an F16 and it interferring with the H16 market/class, I don't think so. The folks who are serious about that boat aren't interested in anything else, and spinnakers give the majority of them the willy's.


Originally Posted by Rolf
Hmm, no icon or smiley for "eyes glazed over". Sorry Mark


Not knowing Mark its hard to say, but I'd think he's got a grudge against the FXone. Or, I'm overly defensive about my boat grin

Re: Kris, Nacra F16? [Re: Karl_Brogger] #168475
02/17/09 05:23 AM
02/17/09 05:23 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
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Wouter Offline
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Quote

Layout and intended use are identical, but loosing 100 lbs is pretty different. The boat will be a rocket I'm sure, but too close to the FXone for my taste.



What I wanted to say was "without making it meaningfully different to either the FX-one or F16's"

There isn't that much difference between the standard FX-one and F16 to begin with; the two are already in eachothers neighbourhood in target group and major layout. The difference that are still meaningful are to be found in the used masts, foils and other stuff that give sailing either boat a different feel.

With the introduction of the icat I expect the FX-one to drop the shortened alu Tiger mast for a carbon mast and improve on the foils, making the remaining difference to the F16's pretty small indeed. The remaining 10 inches hull length is really not enough to notice and the rigs were almost identical in major specs anyway.

With its introduction the Hobie has all the drawbacks of both situations. It is a more expensive FX-one almost identical to the F16 without being an F16 itself. It competes with their own FX-one class but still has to compete against the established F16 class as well. It has to create and grow its own organisation and fleets against the winds coming from both other classes. Note also that it is very unlikely to qualify even as a F104 ! Additionally, it is another strickt SMOD in a cat sailing world that has gone formula in a major way. Just as with the Tiger and FX-one is will be unable to follow the small incremental improvements over time and fall behind the formula classes even when it is on a par at it launch.

I feel it will be an expensive boat as well with the extensive use of carbon cloth. The standard FX-one was never a cheap boat in comparison to to others. All F16's were less expensive. I don't see the price drop with the improvements made to the icat. I fear it will actually start to approximate the A-cat costs without being an A-cat itself.

I'm expecting it to closely resemble a F16 at an A-cat asking price with the potential market penetration of less then the current FX-one.

That I consider a very steep uphill battle. One that is several times more challenging then simply making a Hobie F16 and tapping into the existing F16 marketing program and knowledge base. With respect to the latter I'm refering to the knowlegde already present with Glaser, Landenberger, Ashby, Goodall, Saarberg, Catamaranparts and other suppliers with respect what works on F16's with respect to sails, masts and foils. Now the Hobie corp needs to spend time and money to develop their icat setup to a level comparable to its competitors instead of simply buying into it. Improving on their competition is an even more challenging effort with the F16 builders completing their second generation designs as we speak.

Indeed, my disageement with Hobie doesn't stem from any desire to see them enter into the F16 class but rather from a simple market analysis. I truly believe that the market potential and associated profits are alot better assured with a boat launched within the F16 concept then outside of it.


Wouter


Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: Kris, Nacra F16? [Re: Mark Schneider] #168477
02/17/09 05:41 AM
02/17/09 05:41 AM
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North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
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Quote

PS... Why do you understand Hobie's reluctance to jump into the F16 class? Overlap with the F18's racing demographic. cost differential for building a lightweight boat? Lack of control over the rules limit's profitability long term? Resistance from Hobie 16 OD class?



Mark,

Indeed (in no particular order)

-1- Feared overlap with the F18 demographic
-2- Lack of control over the F16 class by Hobie Corp
-3- Losing face to bunch of upstarts
-4- A deeply embedded SMOD culture
-5- Dogmatic fear of ongoing development


Most of these points are unavoidable anyway. What is the difference costwise in gradually improving the design annually and coming out with a completely new SMOD design every 5 to 10 years anyway ? Fact of the current situation is that cat designs MUST move with the times or accept falling behind with respect to the totally dominant formula scene. Even established OD classes like the Nacra 20's or Tornado's can't/couldn't get away from that.

Additionally what is the difference in cost between building a lightweight F16 and an equally lightweight but totally new icat ? Indeed, any Hobie F16 could have been developped cheaper because of many "off-the-shelve" items the F16 class could deliver to them whose development costs are already spread over a much larger builder base. They can just buy the Superwing Alu mast at cost price by invoking the F16 class deal we have with Goodall on this item. Goodall himself could deliver a fully tested and optimized rig to go with this mast starting next week. A similar deal exists with respect to the Stealth Carbon masts. Lightweight foils ? A thing Hobie corp has never tried in their history could be bought of various builders for less money per set then they can implement a production line for. Tapping directly into decades of A-cat building experience. To give a feel for the challenge they are facing. They have to build 1.5 kg foils with the loading comparable to an FX-one that itself has foils weighting in at a whopping 4 kg's a piece ! In fact the F16 class structure and network being builders and suppliers could have provided Hobie with a rather small investment path to getting the first boats to the market in a competitive sense. If these would catch on then they could have increasingly movied production in-house and optimized their profit margins. Stuff like that.

The feared overlap with the F18 demographic is becoming increasingly a none starter with the improvements made to the icat.

SMOD is a dead concept for new classes. It survives only because of impressive past achievements of old classes (Hobie 16 and Dart 18). All the rest has died. I fear Hobie internal culture is only very slowly adapting to this reality.

Wouter






Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: Kris, Nacra F16? [Re: Wouter] #168546
02/17/09 04:29 PM
02/17/09 04:29 PM

S
Scarecrow
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Scarecrow
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S



I suspect Hobie's reluctance is due to a lack of F16 boats in France. If Hobie were to do an F16 it would be hobie Europe, who understandably are very france focussed.

Re: Kris, Nacra F16? [Re: ] #168586
02/18/09 04:54 AM
02/18/09 04:54 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
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Wouter  Offline
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Quote

I suspect Hobie's reluctance is due to a lack of F16 boats in France.



Some regards this as constituting a market opportunity !

It isn't very attracttive to launch a new product if your homemarket is already saturated with the product of your competitors.

Wouter


Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
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