Looking at the video if the icat it looks like an A Cat. Could this be Hobies shot at the A cat market?
http://www.hobie-cat.net/img/videos/icat_video.wmv

I don't think so. The hull profile is similar to some of the current A designs but that's about it. It is 200mm shorter than an A although that doesn't disqualify it. However it is 200mm wider and has 16sqm of sail when the A limit is 13.94sqm. Both of those disqualify it. There is no mention of the weight in the specs which would also be a critical performance factor. My guess is it's just another orphan class boat being used as a marketing attempt to sell a few more boats - not what we need!
There have been rumours over the last few years of Hobie entering the A Class - even a strong one that they would have a boat at the Worlds event three events ago in France. Nothing appeared. The video is interesting in that the sailor looks like Mitch Booth who has an A Class background - but not much recently.
It seems a difficult fit to me for Hobie to enter the A Class arena from a manufacturing and culture perspective. They have no history in building high tech, light boats built to very close tolerances. No disrespect to their current boats, but it requires a whole new mindset, skillset and equipment to build an 18 foot boat down to 75kg as opposed to 180kg and still have it strong and stiff. In the current market it seems a whole lot easier to make and build plastic boats and kayaks. There is also the Hobie business model where all equipment including sails must come from Hobie. That wouldn't fit the A Class model where development and innovation are constant and parts are tried and developed from all sources to continually push the envelope in performance. As an example, I think Hobie have struggled with the reality that most people who want to be competitive in the F18 class at higher levels have used sails from other sailmakers. To their credit though they have responded to the Tiger joining the dead boat society at international level by producing a more up to date boat. I'm not sure though that they could stand the pace of innovation attempts in the A Class.
They probably looked at the ill-fated Nacra attempt to enter the class with the A2. It failed even though they simply took over building and marketing an already developed boat from established class builders.
Anyway, I don't want to offend any brand loyalties here and I hope they do give it a go. If any big manufacturer can do it Hobie Europe would be the one.

Cheers
John Dowling
AUS9

Thanks for the insite John. I'm not all that farmiliar with the A-Cat standards.

Ace11 is right here. In fact the iCat is more related to the F16's then the A-cats.

In fact the iCat is only F16 NON-compliant in its sailarea (1 sq. mtr to much) and its hull length (29 cm too much = less then a foot). All other specs are compliant. Of course we don't know about overall weight I really don't see the iCat go below 104 kg when rigged with a spinnaker as that would mean the "A-cat alike" basic platform would have to be below 100 kg ready to sail and that is a right proper challenge to achieve. Forget about bringing the weight down to A-cat level, that takes years of acquiring knowlegde and skills.

In the way of performance the iCat will be a lot closer matched to the F16's too. With respect to pricing it looks more like an A-cat however !

The glass/alu FX-one (it predessesor) was already 16.000 Euro ready to sail in 1-up mode (no jib kit, no spi) and the new carbon bits will not lower its price. I'm expecting it to come out around something like 20.000 Euro (incl EU VAT tax) for the 1-up iCat when fitted with a spi. About 5000 Euro more then a fully fitted race ready 2-up F16 (EU market). Basically some 1000 Euro cheaper then the Wildcat F18 because of having lost the jib setup.

For these reasons I tend to agree with Ace11 here that it stands a good change of becoming another orphaned class. The specs don't seem right, especially not for todays market with the economic meltdown. I both love and hate to say it but it is waaaay overpriced with respect to the F16's and it is waaaay underrepresented as a racing class with respect to the A's. I don't see it offering any benefit to either of these competitors, it basically combines the worst of both competitors in one illy timed new class. Why would a customer go for that ?

Wouter



P.S. I would have been so easy for them to have the iCat comply to the F16 class rules. A 12 inch shorter hull is really no biggy and the same applies for a 1/16th = 6.75% sail area reduction. They are not going to seriously outdesign the F16's in weight or performance anyway, so why not make use of the foundations already established for the F16's ? That would have made economic sense. Afterall, the Tiger was a winner for them as well. Why not repeat that trick with the F16 class ? The Tiger on its own would never have had the same succes. Basically they are now trying to create a mirror F16 class (but now as a OD class) without the design being different in any noticeable sense. Sometimes I wonder ....

In fact the boat doesn't even fit the so called 104 group or class they try to found in France.
-> rating one up: about 0.973 (FXone at 104kg, so not 100% correct). 2-up: 0.989 (FXone at 107 kg).

Does anyone know the exact weight?

It's a pity they left the spinnaker home on this test sail.

Anyway the I-Cat is in my opinion also a strange decision from Hobie.

Gill

I also seriously doubt this will catch on as a class. Does that mean I won't order one, I don't know.

I'd be shocked if Hobie US actually imports this model. I am disappointed that it isn't F16 compliant.

I would not be surprised if this were a way to test the waters and build an A-Cat later on. I don't know how different carbon is to work with than glass.

I'd also assume that this boat is cheaper outside of the EU the way the wildcat is. All the same it will still be better than $20K. I hope they paint the mast and crossbars just to protect them from UV, or maybe they just painted black.



Well Wouter, some of us are dummies. I'm young, not married have no kids, and I used to make pretty decent money. I'd seriously consider ordering one. Lustfull thoughts creep into my psyche when I try to wrap my head around a 220 lb, 17', spin boat. Don't start the "you should buy a F16" stuff. Don't worry, I get it. If it were F16 compliant, I would probably bail on the FXone right now if it were.

Well, not that much different. Also the real weight savings typically come from improved building techniques and design, not so much from replacing glass and aluminium by carbon cloth.

Hobie cat needs to traverse that development curve first before being able to attempt building an A-cat and I too don't believe they are near yet. Not beat my own drum but we were lucky to have direct access to A-cat building experience in our class and even then the F16 minimum weight was a hotly discussed topic and it took a while for the builders to get down there. Going for the A-cat level of refinement is another very large step up.


But there is another issue as well; one that we faced as well (F16 class). The A-cat owners are somewhat different from the targeted owners of the Hobie products (or F16's). The first accept owning a boat that is on the edge and may break a big component when hitting a bouy or something (see the other thread. The latter group expects and also demands a robust boat that will take the occasional mishap. You'll be surprised how much time is invested to get some of the customers to treat their boats properly on land even. In more then one occasion owners risked trailering their boats on H16 trailers without any scales to protect the flat keellines of the F16's; despite being strongly adviced not to do that. Also look at the 2007 Alter Cup event and how far the mainsails were sheeted out under spinnaker. The masts made all kinds of large bends and thankfully survived. That is an added expectation of a boat comming from Nacra or Hobie that is very hard to achieve on an A-cat; even for the best of A-cat builders. There is simply not alot of margin in a 18ft/150lbs catamaran design.






Well I wouldn't call you a dummy !

And I'm not beating my own drum here. It is just that F16 concept is so extremely close to the iCat that it makes the F16's they ideal comparison for that design.

I would say getting your head around a 17ft/220 lbs (no jib, no spi) boat is as good as the same as getting it around a 16ft/220lbs F16 without a jib or spi. Hull length is not unimportant but it is also not THAT important.

But you touch on one aspect that I overlooked in my earlier post. Some customers will simply buy it because it is a Hobie. Meaning that for some the brand name of a given setup is important. They will not step into the A-class of F16-class unless it is Hobie who makes an design fitting to that rule even if they had lusted over the class specs.

But best of Luck Karl ! And lots of enjoyment with your FX !


Wouter

I also look at the boat and think I would get one even though it is pricy, if it were F16 compliant. I don't consider the price, I look at what comes in the " sailing package"; regattas, classes and support.

After getting an FX and then getting rid of it to get another Tiger(teen age daughter wanted to sail on the boat with me), I would get another one if there was hope for it. Besides, iCat/F16 would be the ideal target size for my daughter and I.

This is a market Hobie is missing. The kids don't care for the H16 and I like a spin boat. So my choices are a Tiger or ????? In our area Hobie sailing is still over 50% of the regattas, so I will most likely buy a Hobie. If we lived in a different maket place, well I am not sure I would put up with being held hostage.

Nobody wants to upset the H16 apple cart. If the iCat gets to close to it I think it gets vetoed.

Edit: oh yeah, my avatar has two men sailing on it, that is because the wind came up and it was too much for my daughter. An iCat/F16 we would still have been out there.

Interesting points Mike.

And with respect to :




Certainly over the later years I have become convinced that the H16 class and F16 class are alot less competitors then we figured they would be initially. I'm now pretty experience on both, having taught cat lessons on H16's for several year around 2000 etc. After owning my own F16 since early 2004 I have no packed a similar numbers of year on that design as well.

The two classes don't compare in feel at all. The H16 has got a very strong setup centred on the simplicity of the design. I mean, this is a boat you can pull of the trailer and have ready for sailing in less then 15 minutes. The H16 mast is very practical in transpart and stepping as it is just a straight tube with no diamond wires, spreaders and rotation mechanism that requires attention if damage is to be avoided. Once the mast is up you throw up the sails and you are ready to go.

The F16 (and the iCat) is nothing like that. With experience and skill you can rig it up from the trailer quickly enough but you'll need at least 30 minutes and probably more. There is just too much to hook on wrong if you are too much in a haste. On the water the difference are just as large. H16 is basically a simple boat to sail after you set the correct jib fore stay tension. Tuning like downhaul and outhaul is either non-existant or to limited to be of much use beyond setting it right once. The F16 requires alot more skill to race and asks for constant adjustments. Team work goes alot further as well. And when you do it right the boat can become a little bit scary. There is power everywhere, not only on the beam reaches, and you're aproaching boats and marks at absolutely full speed. I never experience sailing at high octane like that on the H16. Or at least not because of the design, very big fleets at their own adrennaline.

Basically the only similarity between the H16's and F16's is the range of crew weights they target. But the mindset of the target group is not comparable in my opinion. Over the years I have told stories of P16 and H16/H14 sailors we took along on I-20's, F18's and F16's at my club. Typically, all instances of such projects run to a familiar script. On the beach before going out the "old school" sailors were pretty confident and felt like embarking on a "lets dunk this one" ride. Once on the race course, we saw outright mutanies, faked heart attacks, excusses of forgotten promises to get home early and grown men kissing the beach upon return under exclamations of "never doing it again !"

Modern spi boats like the I-20, F18, F16 and I suspect the iCat are nowhere near the world as experienced by current actively engaged Hobie 16 sailors. As a result I don't feel these classes will ever impact on eachother in any meaningful sense.

And like you say the young generation is simply not very interested in the H16's. That is my experience as well. Overhere they have only experienced a cat sailing scene dominated by the F18's and want to do what they "real sailors" are doing. When you propose a H16 to them they look at you like a kid that expects a bicycle and gets a tricycle. Yes, I know there are exceptions ! But the general rule seems to be unaffected by those. So maybe in the way of new blood the named classes are in direct competition. I say maybe, because I feel that race has already been run. I really don't see large numbers of young people jumping on the H16 class overhere unless maybe reluctantly as a stepping stone to get up to F18.


So what is my point.

I feel the the H16 will survive on the concept they champion so well and have always championed. A simple boat, with modest performance, in a strickt One-Design class with a large "don't worry, lets party" component for sailors that are looking for racing with such a boat.

The F16's and iCat will be nothing like that. These are/will be complex boats, with state of art performance, in an open class structure where fitting-out, tuning and small personal modifications are integral parts of the whole racing game. They cater for sailors that also like to tweak their boats, build parts up themselves or find the optimal combinations out of a wide range of 3rd party supplier aftermarket components.

I really don't see the H16 crowd ever growing into the second group of sailors. That is expecting them to make a 180 degree turn in the way they see the world. I do believe H16 sailors will see threats everywhere and would like to shoot down every single one of them but in my opinion their concept is becoming unique in the cat sailing world that there really no meaningful threat to their class anyway. That is other then the threats they will have even without any direct competitor. Afterall, it is a problem that alot of young really don't get hot when looking at a H16. And that problem will remain (at least in EU I think) no matter whethet an F16 or iCat exist or not.


So I really hope the iCat doesn't get vetoed on grounds that really don't exist in reality anyway.

But of course my biggest hope would be to see the iCat becoming a F16 compliant design in time. Your comments certaintly convinced me that such a development would also be beneficial to the class I favor ! Something I didn't see that way up till now. Then I couldn't care less whether Nacra and Hobie would ever join. But your comments convinced me that there are still attractive regions that are almost totally dominated by Hobie Corp.


Here some more reading about the experience of a crew very comparable to you and your daughter Mike :

http://www.catsailor.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=170845#Post170845



Forgive me my long post !


Wouter

Ahh Wouter, good to see you are back, in style ;-)

Well, I might be off again. I had some time to burn these days but won't in the upcoming weeks.

That is life !

Wouter

Very intresting this boat, looks ok, but i don't think it will get anywhere, very similar to the fox and fx-1 that was too alike other classes with a pre established class and circuit, soo consequently nothing happened with it. Also in Europe there is a boat that is very similar to it out there already, the Shadow, made by Loday White and has a following at least in the Uk and France. I don't feel hobie has the right mind set.

But how does it compare to the Nacra F17? Maybe that is what they were looking to compete with?

That could well be their goal.

That is what I was thinking as well- and "over here" in the US isn't NACRA marketing the Inter 17 as the "Formula 17" now? Even if it's the only one- so maybe Hobie is calling them on the "formula"?

Kirt

The I-cat rating will normally differ quite a lot from the Nacra 17 rating, so I don't think Hobie is on the Formula 17 track (unless they will both sell a different formula 17 - I don't even know if there is a real F17 rule box).

Nacra sells the 17 in EU also as F17, except for France where they market it as C104.

Regards,
Gill

One thing you can't deny is Hobie has the dealers and marketing power- I can see them selling this as an "A cat for the masses", they haven't had an (accepted anyway) good single hand boat for sale here in the US (other than the Wave Rick!) since the demise of the old Hobie 17 so this may be the "replacement" of that boat? It was quite popular here at one time- And here in the US Hobie has "Gone it alone"- ie "their" Hobie sanctioned regattas allow ONLY "Hobies" to participate so that's another selling point in the US.

Kirt

This is probably in the wrong thread, but what's the difference between the Blade F-16 and the Falcon F-16?

Both are made by Vectorworks/Matt. The Falcon looks a lot more like an Infusion, with rounder bows than the Blade. The Blade looks more like a Capricorn. The Viper also looks like a Capricorn at the bows.

There was a picture or two posted here after Tradewinds. The Falcon is an F16, uses the same mast/sails as the Blade.

Kirk,

Hobie sure has the dealer network, marketing and name to sell boats. But I doubt the I-cat will be the replacement for the Hobie 17. The I-cat is more high tech then the FX One is, so I would surprise me that it would sell better to the Hobie 17 sailors.

Jay,

Indeed better to ask your question seperately or on the F16 forum.
In short, de Falcon is an 'next step' Blade according to me. The sailpattern hasn't really changed, but the volume distribution, placing of the beams, ... has changed (based on the experience of sailing the Blade).

Gill