The NOR is here. http://www.gulfportyachtclub.com/

He must have really long arms to sail 2 boats at the same time!

You ready to go measurement yet? You had some good points and measurement isn't perfect. At least with measurement we can get all spun up over different flaws in the system.

Sure - you lead this time, I'll follow!

How about a round robin with the 2 boats? Shake em' down....

Make it happen, and make sure you go through all the permutations, or least the boats that are still showing up for regattas.

Our friends across the pond have already done all the work. All we need to do is decide which system to use.

Actually, I truly believe the F16's and Taipan to be alot faster then the USPN numbers suggested till the recent change. It is about right now.

We had the funny situation that in Australia, were the Taipans were/are raced actively, the sloop Taipan without a spi was rated faster in relation to the F18's and A's then the F16's (WITH a spi) were in the USA. Obviously something was wrong here and it wasn't the Australia handicap system.

Wouter

A class 64.5/F16 63.0 That can't be right. . .can it?

What about it is wrong? The F16 is (should be) faster than an a-cat...while it is a little heavier, it's got at least twice the sail area for heaven's sake! Have you ever tried to sail downwind with only a mainsail?

OK, I am a fool for saying this, but I will "volunteer" to get involved. I swore that I wouldn't get involved in "organizing" stuff again....but there seems a need for someone to step up.

My background:

Charter founder for PHRF in South Florida (1978)

Tornado Class measurer...(1974-76)

Organizer Key West to Cuba race (1978-79)

Key West Race Week founder with KWSC as fleet captain (1977).

yada, yada, yada....

Can we have a meeting at Spring Fever with you (DI) , Jake, and a few interested folks?

Tell me what has been done so we don't gave to start completely over. What sytem ? Texel...SCHRS?

I would think that we should get the measurement system in place and try it parallel to PH until we see how it does.

This should just be regionalized within Florida and the Mid-South as a trial. Regatta organizers can choose to use it if they want. We need to get a few key boats rated first.

Right now I have no clue what the parameters are for either system, but I am a fast learner.

Let's talk..guys. I am willing if you actually are ready to give it a go.

Well, that is not an easy question to answer. Look at the situation from this perspective.

Making predictions of the F16 performance compared to the F18's, I-20's and even the Nacra 17's/FX-ones/iCat is easy as all of these boats are very similar in their setup. They use sails with very compareble aspect ratio's, their weight-to-power ratio's and heeling-to-power are very similar. The same with length to width etc. They all use spinnakers and require very similar sailing skills for optimal performance. As a result, wind and sea-state conditions as well as sailed courses impact the same on all of these designs with only a rather small set of (small) exceptions. This means that performance differences are largely determined by a few equalities or inequalities in key ratio's/parameters.

The A-cat however is not very similar to the group of boats named above. Its ratio's lie far away from those of the others and different conditions or courses impact differently on the A-cat design then they do to the other designs. It is hard if not impossible to summerize the relative performances in one simple statement or even one simple number. The situation is just too multifacetted to be condensed to such a simple (1-dimensional) benchmark.

It is my experience and opinion that the F16's are at least as fast as the A's on a windward-leeward course in medium conditions. In the light stuff it all dependents on whether the wind is just strong enough to fill the spi. If it doesn't then the A's are faster. In the rough stuff it all comes down whether the conditions allow the spi to be set and douced without capsizing. It is also my opinion that the A's can be fast downwind but only with sufficiently developped windthing skills and these are harder to learn then riding the spinnaker. So for most recreational sailors and racers the F16 will be faster over a significant range of conditions. Partly because the skills to effectively fly the spi are relatively easy to learn.

Personally, I don't think F16 to A = 63.0 to 64.5 is a large difference. It is about a minute per 45 minute bouy race. Even if that ratio is wrong, I still don't believe it is far of the mark. I think, by crude averaging, that the A's are properly placed just a tad slower then the F18's (and F16's) while recognizing that they have convincing sweet spots like sub-spinnaker light winds where they are simply outperformaning nearly all others.

Whether the difference of 3.4% that currently exists between the F18's and A's under USPN is right is something that future results must prood or disproof.

Wouter

What Woot said. And yes, the H17 downwind put me off racing for years!

Careful, Jack... someone might take you seriously. That's a huge job. It is on the agenda for the Multihull Council meeting later this month in Denver.

http://www.ussailing.org/events/meet09sp/documents.asp

As of this posting, the Multihulls are the only ones to have posted an agenda in accordance with Bylaws. HA!

The truth is and has been for some time, that Darline could use some help.

I assume you'll be at SF. Perhaps you can bring me up to speed on this. I'm not really interested in getting involved with PH. My interest would be in a measurement based alternative.

.....and I've never been shy of "huge jobs".

There are two schools of thought:

1) give portsmouth the help it needs to continue.
2) go strictly to a measurement based system (personally, I'm not a fan of this and will be glad to discuss in more detail)
3) design a combined system that utilizes the strengths of both the portsmouth and measurement based systems to overcome the weaknesses of both.

There's no need to reinvent a new wheel here - there are successful measurement based systems and successful performance based systems. Consequently they both have polar opposing strengths weaknesses that could benefit from the other.




Damnit Ding....you're getting a new shirt this year.

I am only proposing a face to face meeting at this point for some discussion that might involve RUM DRINKS.

I too am sceptical of a measurement system, but it seems they are popular elsewhere.

I never liked PH because of the flaws and apathy in the reporting process.

PHRF works better assuming you have handicappers who are totally unbiased.

A measurement system eliminates personalities and incomplete/flawed reporting data.

Of course the formula has to be sound, but it seems the homework has been done in the EU arena.

I would not want to dismantle or impede PH in any way.

someone say Rum? I'll talk about it! uhh, what was the topic?

If you'll allow me to remove the "might" in that statement by bringing some supplies, you got it.

I will bring Appleton Reserve.