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Sylvia Earle has something to say... #171666
03/13/09 04:05 PM
03/13/09 04:05 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 623
Gulf Coast
tami Offline OP
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tami  Offline OP
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Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 623
Gulf Coast
http://www.ted.com/index.php/talks/sylvia_earle_s_ted_prize_wish_to_protect_our_oceans.html

And as an aside, I'd like to quote from another forum (Cruisers' Forum) a gentleman named Jerry Woodward, who offered a nice synopsis about how the scientific method works, and comparison to media driven 'junk science.' I offer this in the hopes that those will at least somewhat gain understanding about the process:


"As a PhD immunologist, with an active research lab, I am constantly amazed and appalled at the amount of "junk" science out there and the inordinate amount of press often heaped upon a single poorly conducted study, often times not published in a peer reviewed journal. At the other end of the spectrum, I'm equally incensed to see non-scientists attempt to discredit large bodies of scientific research because it goes against their moral or political beliefs: global warming, embryonic stem cells and evolution are a few examples.

So, when I read this topic, I initially thought this was another case of typical junk science. However, National Geographic usually doesn't fall into the trap of reporting junk. So, I looked up the article and checked out the journal. Environmental Health Perspectives has an impact factor of 5.64, which is very respectable for a peer reviewed journal and places it as number 1 among 160 environmental peer reviewed journals. This means that the article was subject to intense scrutiny and review by experts in the field. This paper is a serious piece of scientific inquiry, with state of the art methodology, appropriate controls and statistical analysis. It represents a considerable amount of work and to imply that these guys did this just to get a free trip to the tropics reflects a serious lack of appreciation of the time and effort required to complete a study like this, and get it published in a high quality journal.

To the poster who implied that this has been "debunked", I would echo Gord's response: what is your evidence? In fact, I checked, and there has been no refutation of any of the claims of this work so far in the peer reviewed literature.

So, does this mean we should take this work as gospel, that the work is beyond reproach, that the conclusions are iron clad? Of course not. No single piece of scientific work in the literature is without its faults. This is the part of science that most people don't really seem to understand. Science is continual process of experimentation, publishing of results, and then replication by independent groups. The more the results are replicated, the more it becomes generally accepted. If the results can’t be replicated, it will die a silent death. Often times, there is a completely unanticipated finding that sends the field into a whole new direction. For example, this study includes the surprising finding that these agents reactivate viruses in the Zooxanthellae. The question is why? How does this work? Might this give us a clue as to how other environmental aromatic hydrocarbons affect corals? In other words, the ultimate benefit of this research might have little to do with sunscreens.

The posters who are skeptical because of the dilution effect raise a very legitimate question. But this gets more to the interpretation of the results, rather than the data itself. Of course this study doesn’t say that sunscreens are killing our reefs, but it does open up the possibility that these compounds may be involved. Only further studies will shed light on this. Many of these compounds are not water soluble and thus may be concentrated in marine organisms as well.

Sorry for the long-winded post, but I feel strongly that people need to recognize legitimate science for what it is: it’s one piece of a very large and complex jigsaw puzzle. We also need to loudly denounce junk science when we see it. But this is not one of those.

Jerry"

(the above was replied to a discussion regarding the effects of sunscreen on coral reefs.)

-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: Sylvia Earle has something to say... [Re: tami] #171673
03/13/09 05:04 PM
03/13/09 05:04 PM
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 5,525
pgp Offline
Carpal Tunnel
pgp  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 5,525
thank you.


Pete Pollard
Blade 702

'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.

Re: Sylvia Earle has something to say... [Re: tami] #171699
03/13/09 08:36 PM
03/13/09 08:36 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Mark Schneider  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Thanks for the citation Tami... corals are a side hobby.

As a peer reviewer... the shorthand we offer to grad students is... "Data Speaks..." The discussion part of the paper is just that discussion and interpretation. The data collected should stand and be repeatable. Interpretations can and do extend beyond the data and they may change with the next addition to the scientific literature. Reasonable people will agree to disagree and work to come up with a better experiment to test the critical feature of the current model.


crac.sailregattas.com
Re: Sylvia Earle has something to say... [Re: Mark Schneider] #171700
03/13/09 08:55 PM
03/13/09 08:55 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,911
South Florida & the Keys
arbo06 Offline
Pooh-Bah
arbo06  Offline
Pooh-Bah

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,911
South Florida & the Keys
You all know me as a Jolly Roger, however, in my other life I am a data driven, Process Improvement, data collcting, documenting, son of a biscuit eater.

Data collection is the most imperative function of any P.I. Team. Perhaps that is what needs to happen here.


Eric Arbogast
ARC 2101
Miami Yacht Club
Re: Sylvia Earle has something to say... [Re: arbo06] #171741
03/14/09 01:15 PM
03/14/09 01:15 PM
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 736
Westport, Ma. U.S.A.
Brian_Mc Offline
old hand
Brian_Mc  Offline
old hand

Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 736
Westport, Ma. U.S.A.
Tami, Thanks! Reliable sources of facts are getting harder and harder to come by.

Re: Sylvia Earle has something to say... [Re: Brian_Mc] #172115
03/18/09 08:13 AM
03/18/09 08:13 AM
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 41
Tampa, Fl
deepsees Offline
newbie
deepsees  Offline
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Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 41
Tampa, Fl
National Geographic lost me when they did an entire issue about how the thinning ozone was causing frogs to be deformed. It was the issue of the day where all these so called scientist purchased with grant money got on board and chanted as one about ozone.

Except for those who seek knowledge over money found that it was a microscopic bug chewing on the frog's DNA instead of the ozone layer.

National Geographic never issued a statement about being totally off base.

Data... test the data, not the politics.

The same people told us we are going to see a twenty foot rise in sea levels over ten yrs... that was issued three years ago... no flooded coast lines. Should be at least three feet deeper by now.... according to National Geo.

McCay bay here in Tampa is still a mud flat at low tide... guess the water is all piled up out at sea waiting on the special day to come and flood.

Last edited by deepsees; 03/18/09 08:14 AM.

Deepsees
Re: Sylvia Earle has something to say... [Re: deepsees] #172150
03/18/09 10:13 AM
03/18/09 10:13 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Mark Schneider  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
I think you are missing the point about how science works.

You only get answers when you ask questions about a model (Hypothesis) conduct an experiment... sometimes good... and sometimes good as you can manage at the time which is not good enough.

The results comes back as the data support the model tested, the data can't resolve the question, or the data clearly reject the model. It does not come back and say TRUE.

You pay scientists to critically test ideas with a rigorous method. In the example you mention... the scientific process generated a complete alternative model and the experiments produced clear and convincing data for the microbiological model which outweighed the ozone model. (nobody has proven the negative here)

Do scientists have bias's... absolutely and it's part of the system... Your instincts lead you in a direction and you bet the farm... You believe your model and your job is to give it the best trashing you can... if it holds up under close evaluation.... great... if it has a critical flaw... out it goes. Scientists unlike true believers and faith based individuals move on.

The problem is that scientists can't explain to politicians and the public this process and these folks want definitive ANSWERS when such things may not exists. Nobody wants a maybe...(Its like a doctor giving a patient the answer... I don't know... i don't have a diagnosis... Not good enough!.. People will go to the next doc and get one....) The language used to explain the state of the art to the public becomes similar to that used in faith based discussions or political discussions.

So... you are left with bashing National Geographic for not retracting their story. Bashing "so called scientists" as craven money grubbers who followed a political agenda and you believe that some noble individual saved the day for truth justice and the American way. It's a great sad story that does not move the ball forward.


crac.sailregattas.com

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