Maybe I could have found this elsewhere, but do poles have to be fixed and stayed? After the NSW states (where we sailed without a kite with the F16HPs) I feel that the F16s lose a fair bit upwind. I know some (and better) sailors don't necessarily agree but we were faster upwind against the top guys than usual. I think we did better than normal tactically, but we also seemed pretty even with speed against Cookie et al; normally we are not consistently in the ball park. Any comments from Willy/Cookie/Andrew & co?
Also, Willy sailed 1-up with pole and snuffer (but no kite) a few weeks before and got hammered by the top standard 1-up Taipan.
All this makes me wonder whether a retractable carbon pole may be faster. 49ers have no trouble supporting them. I know most skiffs favour fixed poles but the windage/weight issues are probably different.

I think you will find the classes with fixed poles have poles that are similar in length to their hull.. Which also is prodobinately those classes which have their base in NSW.. All other skiff classes have a more modest pole and are generally unsupported poles (cherubs, I14s, Javelins 29ers, 49ers).. We would easily support our stump on a retracting system..

Unsupported poles use larger diamater pole and its generally heavier than the supported system.. For example I believe you will find the 18 has a 4 cm diameter alloy pole.. The I 14 has a 10 cm pole..
The supported javelin pole is 3 cm diameter while the unsupprted is 9 cm.. True the unsupported has spreaders and supporting wires.. The unsupported has the second tube and bushes.. The supported system is far cheaper.. carbon tube Vs standard alloy tube.. In Javelins its roughtly $100 Au vs $900 Au.. Speed of each is roughtly the same when it comes to usage..

The round the track speed issue is more interesting.. It would appear from the top NS14 sailors they are quicker than the MG14 upwind.. Even though the MG has a trapeze but also carried a kite or genacker.. But use the same hulls and sails.. Maybe we should ask the MG/NS guys why it is..

CJT24,

You're right there is definately a windage problem with snuffers. Like with all things it is a trade off, you gain speed downwind but suffer a little bit upwind.

That is one reason why I personally prefer the bag system. even a bare pole has some windage but it is noticably less than with the bag. I'm convinced that the extra time required to retrieve the spi are compensated by losing less time when going upwind or even the tactical advantages of being able to point a little higher. Having said this, I've found that with a little practise the manual system needs not be more than a seconds slower than the snuffer system. Something, when the snuffer is not lubricated enough I tend do be even quicker.

It takes practice and a bit of debate on how the skipper and crew should work together but after this is completed you'll be surprised how quickly you can take down a 17,5 sq. mtr. spi of the F16's. It is not a big spi. If anything, most time is lost on putting it in the bag. That is why bag choices are important.
I personally dislike the doublesided zipper system. They tend to wast alot of time when you retrieve on the other side than where you hoisted it from. Than you have to close one zipper and open up the other side and those zipper always clog up with salt after a while. I much prefer the Hobie cat spi bag over the zipper bag. See attached picture.

The only draw back of this bag is that sometimes the spi is pulled out by the tension of the halyards. That is because most people fit their bag with the opening facing forwards. Even I did that for two years. Recently it occured to me that I could just turn the bag around and let the opening face backward. It will be better accesable to the crew and the halyard will jam itself in the corner and it will be alot more difficult for it to pull out the spi while sailing. Rotate the picture in your mind and assume your facing the bag in that position. Its is also easier shoving the spi in that way isn't it ?

This got me think. What if I made a bag that was 100 % a lid and that was held close by a bungee running over it from an eyelet on one side to an eyelet on the other ? Something like halve a circle ? By pulling on the trap one would pull the bungee away and the lid would be opened and flap all the way forward exposing the spi. On could probably immediately hoist the spi from that position maybe just quickly shoove it to lee a 70 cm while reaching for the halyard. This would allow ligthning sets. Retrieving would go the usual way but putting it in the bag would be nothing more than grasping the bundle with one hand shoove to the right postion to where it will be covered by the lid and close the lid with the other hand. Shouldn't take more than a few seconds too. Much less windage and the manual system wears down the spi much less.

The next best alternative would be a midpole snuffer or one right in front of the bridles. The full pole snuffers are the worst. Ask Kirt Simmons about comparing these two, he checks this forum regulary, Kirt ? He owns and sails with both systems. He found the midpole system to be a noticable improvement over the full length snuffer.

The other alternative is the trampoline based snuffer but this one has as downsides that it requires three patches in the sail and requires the spi to be set and doused on the same side.

Having said this I'm beginning to learn how to do Windward douces and is simpler than I expected it to be.

Maybe I should at one time make a proper workinstruction of it and post it.

Wouter

It is only 36 kg's, I don't understand.


Actually i'm left without a means to show you the spi bag, i could mail it too you if you want ?

Wouter

Wouter,

Those pictures of the snuffer that I wanted to attach were only small as well but I couldn't attach them either.

Perhaps there is a problem associated with the shift to the new server.

Rob.

Hey guys! I couldn't load an attachment either the other day (and it was one I had previously attached on this forum!)
So, I think there has been a problem created- Somebody needs to tell Rick
As to the snuffers and pole- I agree there is a windage issue even with a bare pole- I try to minimize this by keeping my pole as low as possible. As to the snuffers- the pole end snuffers may be the easiest to use in terms of setting retrieving but my ability to point was seriously hampered when I had that setup. Even a bare pole affects it IMO. For "around the cans" I found the midpole Guck snuffer (with the snuffer as far back as possible- just forward of the bridle-) with the small diameter pole low is the best compromise- and the fact ALL the Tornado sailors seem to prefer this type setup vindicates it in my mind. One other advantage of the Guck snuffer is the bag lays along the side of the pole (rather than hanging under) so the windage is further reduced and I have been putting my bag on the top of the tramp although now that I have my new custom tramp installed (I'd attach a pic except I can't ) I will try putting under the tramp again.
Also figured out the easy way to install a new tramp (man, those buggers are SNUG!) and would include photos of that but can't attach! We tried slowly working it down the hull sides- That didn't work! So, despite my "A" cat helper's insistence that "That won't help!", I put my "A" mainsheet blocks around the rear crossbar inside corner at one side, and my Taipan blocks on the other side- each attached to the corner rear grommet of the tramp. Then, with one of us on each side making sure the boltrope of the tramp was feeding in we slowly sheeted in, stretching the tramp evenly and it slid right in!!

Hope this helps-

Kirt

Thanks for advice on how to get the tramp into the tracks - I still have to figure out a way to get my tramp OFF the boat to do some repairs & add a few eyelets! Question : I`ve heard that the Taipan jib sheet blocks are attached to the trampoline - I`d like to do this on the Mozzie to bring the sheeting position inboard without using complicated barber-haulers (one more piece of string on the boat & I`ll be crew-less !), Do they re-inforce the tramp around an eyelet through which the blocks are attached ? I`m a bit sceptical about the tramp taking the load of the jibsheets although I`m sure the loads aren`t that high. Any advice ?

Thanks for the info guys.

Re prices for unsupported poles; I was wondering about using either a cast-off windsurfer mast (surprisingly tough, but tough enough???? dunno) or perhaps a 49er top section which can be found around the yard at Woollahra SC fairly easily! Sounds like it may be too big and heavy though. Perhaps one way to reduce windage would be to have the stays connected to the tack; they would go out only when the tack was pulled out. They would not be as tight as a pre-set system, but does that matter? Lots of dinghies have flexy poles which they say flattens the kite when overpowered.
I think we may just bag the kite. Wouter's "all opening top bag" sounds good, just like the ones we use in Etchells and J/24s and I can drop them pretty quickly - and reliably. If you can bag an 18 or 12 footer's kite a 17.5m should be easy. Any comments?

While I know the Tornado uses snuffers etc, they are a much bigger boat and the windage/weight concentration issues may be of a different order.

I've often asked MG & NS sailors why the MG has (or had) a slower yardstick. From what I've seen it's related to the standard of sailing (having raced against the best in each class nationally), the fact that MG gear is developed from the NS which is (or should be) a very different boat in many ways, and the fact that on underpowered boats with trapezes, the average skipper tends to bear away in the lulls rather because the crew is too slow moving in. The weight of the kite and pole doesn't seem to be a major issue. And the MGs do seem to be going quicker nowadays, with assys.

Steve,

There is an excellent article on the F16 web site called 'How to rig the Taipan 4.9' or something:

http://www.geocities.com/f16hpclass/ahpc_taipan_49_how_to_rig.html

The article has some excellent photos including one of the loops on the trampoline that the jib blocks attach to.

By the way, the Taipan still uses barber haulers.

Rob.

This is a fairly common way to attach the jib fairleads on the Australian sloop Mosquitos. The tramp is definitely strong enough (if you can stand on it you shouldn't be able to pull it apart with a 2:1 jib sheet). I've seen two setups, one is a row of eyelets with rope threaded in-and-out through them to give a row of loops to attach the fairleads to. The other is a piece of narrow webbing stitched to the tramp to make a row of small loops.
In both cases you can easily move the fairlead position while sailing.
Also the row of loops is usually placed at an angle so as the fairlead is moved inboard it also moves forward.
Hope this helps.
Tim

Hopefully here's a pic of my newly installed Taipan tramp, and if it doesn't load just send me an E-mail and I can shoot you the pics- Even have a pic of the bottom of the tramp-

Kirt

It looks good Kirt! Have you worked out the tricky lacing along the back edge of the tramp yet? I notice in the picture it's not yet laced.

Rob.