So out of the Falcon and the Viper what are some advantages and disadvantages. I kinda want the Falcon right now, but may be able to get a good price on a Viper. I know the Viper is heavier but other than that...

Are you really switching?????

'bout time!

Hey there Karl,

Seriously, you need to decide for yourself. Take both for a test ride and then you decide. Everybody is different. We'd all love to have a new F-16 join us on the race course - good luck! - G

Yes as a rule the lighter boats are generally more costly to produce however there are some advantages to having a heavy boat for example; they are more firmly anchored to the ground or trailer when not in use.

Karl, to answer your question, I saw no "advantage or disadvantage" to either boat in the GYC regatta that featured both, well, only one Falcon but sevral Blades and Vipers.

Here's something to consider however, the Falcon is a USA produced product and if you need some part, quick, you can get it next day overnight, or on the spot, at a regatta, if Matt is there.

Matt has bailed me out a couple times by giving me spare parts out of his box at a regatta. I don't know if you can find some of the parts (rudder parts, boom, etc.) for a Viper on the spot at a regatta.

But you are up in MN, right? So I don't know if you will find -any- parts for either boat unless you come to Florida to race, which, given the winters in MN, might be your best chance of sailing for 6 months of the year...And did I tell you I need new cabinets in my Kitchen and bathrooms? Want to make a deal next January?

Personally, I think any F16 at a good price is a good buy although the modified Taipans are now falling behind a bit unless they were heavily upgraded. Afterall the F16 class now has almost 8 years of slow development under its belt and it is starting to add up.

I think Gina said it best. Spend some money at getting a test ride on both. Personal tastes differ from person to person. I can however assure you that the F16's tend to carry weight surprisingly well. It is not what most would expect from a small lightweight craft like the F16's but it is simply true. A Viper at 125 kg does not necessarily have to be noticeably slower because of the extra kg's. But I would always have the seller put the overall ready-to-sail weight on paper. I mean you don't want to get up there to say 137 kg (+30 kg to other F16's). At some point the difference is going to count; there is no denying that.

I think the strong points of the Viper are the excellent layout of systems and lines. From what I've seen, it is a very clean boat. The added weight could also come in handy in really nasty short chop when sailing 1-up. There have also been slight changes to the mast setup and sails that appear to have worked out really well. I believe the hound fittings were moved up to provide more stiffness to the top of the mast and Goodall has optimized his sails to that change. Other then that I believe the two options are as good as identical. Although, the Viper was reported as having excellent powered-up spinnaker sailing dive resistance.

The Falcon F16 (one I personally like very much from the pics) main strong point is its low weight, about 110 kg in standard layout. I was personally really impressed with the Glaser sails (main + jib) that Matt brought to the GC in 2007. I have raced with them and hold parr with the new infusion F18 sailed by my club champions. A marked improvement over the older Ogletree sails. If the new Falcon hull shape has effectively addressed the high-powered downwind sailing issue then it should be an excellent design (=test sail). That was, in my opinion, the last outstanding issue with the Blades. But without having sailed the Falcon myself, I can't pass judgement on that.

Best of luck and ... welcome to the club.

Wouter

Wouter, after extensive testing and practice, I think I have solved the "high powered downwind sailing issue" with my Blade. The key is to sit way back, pull both boards half way up so you can put your outside foot up against the back of one, to keep you from sliding foreward, drive it deep ahead of any big puff and keep the bows up so you are planing over the tops of the waves, not digging into them, if you can, depends on wave size.

I have found this to be quicker to get from A mark to C mark sailing Uni in high wind, vs. trying to trap and fly a hull, which will drive the low bow down and you will stuff much more often.

Go deep and plane on two hulls instead of trying to fly a hull, when it is blowing. That is the key to the sharp bows of the Blade, going downwind in a good breeze.

In medium to lighter wind, I keep both board down to promote flying a hull as soon as possible, then go downwind on one hull only as much as possible.

Oh, and Seth Stern, sailing a stock Taipan 4.9 Uni, won a race at Gulfport last week, over several Vipers, M+G on the new Falcon, and some Blades as well. The Taipans are still very fast boats if you know how to sail them. I would not count them out.

I think Seth has new sails. Goodalls maybe, not certain.

He's a wild man, always breaking stuff so the boat is always being upgraded.

Yes, I think he's now running a Windsurfer mast as a spinnaker pole! Too funny, and he was doing very well, 4th place, until those two light air races on Sunday!

Maybe I'm just hopped up on Caffeine or something, but how come every time this issue comes up we have a cynic in the room about weight? Obviously you are being funny, but truthful none the less.

I'm really curious...

Really, if you look at the GYC(http://www.gulfportyachtclub.com/multihull%20results.htm) results about two weeks ago, you would think that the lighter boats would destroy the "heavier boats".... but in the lighter winds, RACE 3(not much lighter, but lighter), the heavier boat won the race? RACE 5, even lighter winds than RACE 3, Tom Shannon on a Viper single handling got 3rd place ahead of a Blade that was single handed, Yes, I know a Single handed Blade got 1st place in that race and a boat with Crew got Second.

So, what's up with that?

I'm not trying to start a fight or anything, but the weight thing is really a non issue....well maybe if it's blowing less than 5, the lighter boats might be at an advantage....Heck at 5 it's a crap shoot anyway...But as far as I'm concerned, in this class, it all comes down to the sailor, NOT the boat, even a heavier boat.....

Mike

Amen to that! It is not the boat, but the nut on the tiller.

I too am a bit miffed about all the vitrol coming from the region of south-east Asia and Oceania.

But I also think some of the "Florida Chatter" is getting out of hand too. I feel Dave made very respectable comments that were met with uncalled venomous remarks by Pete.

Now I can appreciate a heated debate on specifics and facts, but this time it seems that emotions and grudges are dicting the tone of the responses. That is over the line as far as I'm concerned. It is unbecoming for any human being and doing needless damage to the F16 class.

Personally, I hope that I have always reiterated that all F16's are capable boats and that racing any of them to first place is viable. I still sail a 7 year old modified Taipan myself. I do value the newer designs higher then the older designs but that is only logical when looking at the increased knowlegde that was available when the newer versions were designed. The differences are still, however, only 1-3 % at most while sailor induced differences are measured in the range of 5-25%. Only perfect equalled skilled crews will ever show a 1-3% design based difference in any consistant manner.

With kind regards,

Wouter

"But I also think some of the "Florida Chatter" is getting out of hand too. I feel Dave made very respectable comments that were met with uncalled venomous remarks by Pete. "

I think this belongs over on the "rules" thread. Mike's question concerns the issue of relative boat weight. But it's kind of funny coming from you.

Similar style hull shape (By that I mean Tubes of various configurations not comparing it to a V-bottom hull like the H16) the hull itself is at most around 2% of the race. This being from the old rule of thumb that 90% of the outcome is from the driver/crew, 7% is the rig and the rest is a toss up with the foils and hulls. Given designs that are close it will be the team not the boat that will win.

Look at the older designs in the evolving classes like the MK V in the A class or the Tiger in the F18. These boats still win races. Handicap numbers are not falling with every new design that comes along in these classes because the ultimate speed of the older boats really is no different than the newer designs. I do feel though that the newer designs make it possible to more easily attain that top speed. Many of the designs are more responsive and more stable so that they can be driven to their potential with greater ease.

Boat weights play into that same catagory of irrelavance within the 20-30 pounds of the F16's. Give it a 100 or more like some of the other classes and you will really tell. I would much rather have my extra weight on my body to move it around as required for proper trim, but that is my personal view, otherwise who cares except for some BS bragging rights.

Follow Gina's advice and try out the boats. None are going to provide any huge order of magnitude difference in a race, but they will feel different. You are not going to be able to find that magic race winner (used to be the portsmouth number was good, but a few loud mouths took care of that for us). You will find a boat though taht is confortable to you and keeps the fun in the sailing.

Mid June I'll be spending a few days on a Viper in Florida. I'll have to chase down a Falcon somewhere half assed locally and give that a run. It'd be nice if I ride both back to back on the same day/conditions.

I'm light enough at 160lbs that the extra weight wouldn't be too much of a detriment.

I won't be buying anything this year. I'm poor, and committed to going to Lake Havasu in November with the FXone. The only reason I even want to switch is that I can't get anyone locally to buy up a FXone, and I'm sick of just running around the course by myself.

Despite wild rumours and charactures that have been created around my persona, I have never abused anyone or called anyone names. I have always "played the ball" as they say. My comments were always focussed on the argument at hand, on some logic that was contained in the discussion. And everytime when a person like Sam or Macca made a normal posting I replied in kind or let them be. When I called somebody stupid it was always in conjuction with an obvious logic argument that the other person was well capable of understanding but was unwilling to do so.

I have never responded to anyone in the way you have done just recently.

This may be a fine line for some but I really do consider it a significant difference.

And lets face it, Pete, you have considerable history in provocing controversy by inflamatory initial postings. You make a point of regulary creating a new thread that way and watch the spectacle develop as a result. I have never initiated such thread in my history, ever.

With kind regards.

Wouter

There is more here than you are aware of. I'm satisfied with my actions.

Cheers.

There may well be, but if the offense was committed off this forum then why not have your reply to it off this forum as well ?

Right now, forum readers without the other knowlegde that you refer to will misinterprete this commotion and probably seek to blame innocent parties. Of course, they will do so with a little encouragement from our friend Taipanfc, who never misses an opportunity to underscore his own prejudice towards the class.

I don't presume to apply guilt in any way in your dealings with Dave, I just question your decision to jump on him without having Dave giving you cause to do so in this particular thread or even this forum.

This is a public forum after all and it acts partly as a brochure for the F16 class.

Wouter

This is still the wrong thread. If you wish to continue, come over here.

http://www.catsailor.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=176399#Post176399