You're joking?
Any new boats?

F20 class is the only solution. And just make sure the N20 qualifies in similar fashion to what they did with the Taipan 4.9 (F16) and end the drama...

Swell also seems to be getting ready to produce a 20 footer so it seems plausible that other manufactures might be interested in participating.

A lot of the boats are getting up there in age. Mine is a 2001 model but honestly isn't showing any lasting signs of age. This winter I plan on redoing the bottoms AGAIN since Spring Fever screwed over my last bottom job and I also plan on re-painting the mast.

Larry had a lot of work done on his boat and let me tell you, it looked brand spankin new. Its amazing just what a little TLC does for these boats. As far as stiffness is concerned, I really have no way of accurately measuring it other than bow walking... and mine has negligible bow walk after I've seated the beams.

Yea you can clean them up good. Not a N-20, BUT this boat is a 86!!! Looks new.

Doug

A guy in my home town completely redid both hulls with paint(emron?) and gelcoat, and it really was amazing how much better a 9+ year boat looked. These boats do seem to hold up quite a while, so my approach and I think alot of the fleets is to keep maintaining them. It would be nice to add some new boats to the fleet however...

Larry's boat looks better than new!

I redid our blue boat in 2005 for 2006. I seem to remember it was a 1998 or 99 boat. We finished 3rd that year. The I20s do hold up quite well and just need a little TLC (like anything else).

Well,that is the fundamental question right...

Is it necessary to have some new boats come into the fleet, so that the new class members can purchase a 3 or 4 year old boat and go racing... or can you maintain the current racing program with the existing fleet of refurbished boats.

Im sorry, but I cant let that one slide.... there was HUGE drama, and in the end the majority of the 4.9 fleet shunned the f16 rules and never converted their boats.

I seem to recall wouter stiring them up no end.

In the way of the Swell 20 ftr, i'll be guessing ur talking about the storm. The Storm happened several years ago and got no where, they just havent updated the webby in ages.

I remember seeing pictures of the Storm with 3 guys in trapeze flying a hull.
Its hard enough finding 1 crew, let alone 2!

Reviving the F20 discussion from 2001, etc. makes a lot of sense. It seems the main resistance then was centered around the perameters of the N20 that were outside the box.

As suggested then (by Wouter, et al) just grandfatehr the N20 and go from there.

Problem solved and you may pick up a few "lesser boats" to trounce as well.

There are a lot of good old hulls out there, Hobie 20's, Nacra 6.0's and of course the I20's, seems all you need to do is agree on a spinnaker size, main and jib, and go from there.

The carbon mast thing could be a hold up if anyone thinks that gives the I20 an edge. Personally, I don't think it does that much for you and now with the light Alum. wing masts, you might be faster with one of those.

The F20 was proposed to combine different classes of 20 foot boats and have them race heads up. Then as now the boats are too different and folks too divided for it to move forward. From what I've observed from the people willing to do the work is NO interest in reviving the F20 class as it was proposed several years ago, and only a desire to update the sail plan within the N20 class. This one item alone will take time/effort and without a doubt will come at some cost to the class.

It's really unlikely that "lesser boats" are going to be all that interested in racing heads up. Jack do you want to sail your H20 heads up against the N20?

I do that now. What's the big deal?

And I have beaten a few of the cripples.

It will be hard to take any other 20 footer and compete in this class, but its not impossible. At least people will feel like they are racing Formula one design

So, you're racing heads up no handicap?

If they score a race on handicap I wouldn't turn it down.

However, there are races that I would do regardless if straight up was the rule...like the Mug Race or Statue on Liberty.

There are ways I could make my boat faster. I could even get an N20 if I wanted one.

That isn't the point.

There are N6.0/Fox/H20 etc. guys who might come out if allowed. If they need a handicap, too bad. If they have a box to fit into, then let it be. I don't think I am a lone voice in the wind...probably just the most naïve.

Jack, we've been down this road and they simply DON'T come out. It's great that you are willing to sail this way but the bottom line is most aren't.

Heck their is a perception within the F18 fleet that the older designs are not on par with the newer boats and yes I do think this perception is impacting attendance. Look at the number Tigers that sailed the 2005 NA champs and the 2008 NA champs.

The N6.0 guys are pretty much extinct and the H20 guys that are still getting it done I suspect are pretty hard core OD guys. The Fox although a pretty cool boat came and went before the glass could finish kicking off, and I think the handful that made it to the US are now gone or no longer sailed.

So, what the N20 guys are currently doing is the best option in my opinion and if a F20 class takes on a life of it's own based on that then great.

Is there any significant reason the organizers of any marquee race such as T-500 or GT-300 couldn't specify a particular platform (say, N20 or Tiger) and allow the sail plan to be open?

Other than additional manpower to measure the boats (which they do already?), would this allow for sailplan development on similar platforms to truely gauge performance increases?

If a particular sailplan was demonstrated to be better (from a statistically significant basis), it could then be phased in to the SMOD rules in the manner described earlier...

So, for instance, it is determined through testing and a race like the GT300 that a particular spin design offers the best performance over a wide range of conditions (good for bouys and distance, too), that design would then be incorporated into the fleet rules and phased in over a 3 year period (usually the efffective racing life of a spin, right?)...

As the T500 has already established, it is a good "testing ground" for sail construction, and I think this type of event could be utilized for R&D on sails and equipment for various platforms chosen for the event.

I agree on a few points made earlier:

The N20 isn't like the Getaway in that the majority of owners aren't going to leave them 'tied up' at the beach and take them out for an afternoon/sunset sail. Most owners are racing them in some form (local, regional, national, etc). So, it would lead one to think that most owners want the class to remain relatively current in terms of technology and performance, while still allowing a limit on the cost involved to race.

There isn't a 'replacement' to the N20 as of late that has gained a significant market share to threaten the future of the class.

There are many advantages to opening up the sail plan to other builders, but cost is definitely not one of them (because the class size is below the threshold of ROI for the lofts)

As I get older and fatter, I enjoy the 20 class more for its ease of use and better weight handling characteristcs. I could see a team at minimum weight having a better time on something smaller, but as we tip the scales closer to 400....

I respect that and shouldn't interfere.

My prediction still is...organized or not, there is such a divide in needs, that a split is inevitable. Even in the best situation, a new sail inventory, "one size fits all", will be Obamatized to the point of "why bother"?

I could be wrong (doubtful), but obviously none of my affair.

I also understand the "new boat" syndrome, and that will always happen in any senario. Didn't the Tigers do pretty well recently?

My battle is totally a different one....how to get some of the older boats out to fill in the tail end of the fleet. There are others, but we are all made to feel unwelcome...not worthy...etc. That is more why they don't come out than the fear of getting trounced.