The "second 500" was called the OBX 500 and completed what they hoped to be the "Atlantic 1,000". Pretty much, the second 500 is tougher than the first 500 in several ways. Not only is course more difficult and the water much colder, at that time you've already sailed 500 miles. It pretty much sucks, but like Tawd, I'd rather run the northern 500 than the southern.

I think the one thing that can be said that we'd all agree on is that the organizer setting the boat is a BAD moved. Let the sailors run what they're happy with and trust...

Just a little historical data for those that care: boats entered. I removed teams withdrawn prior to the start when I had the data.

Worrell 1000
1997 - 21
1998 - 22
1999 - 13
2000 – 18
2001 - 21
2002 -19

T500
2003 – 27
-I-20 – 15
-18HT – 8
-6.0 spi - 4
2004 - 16
2005 - 11
2006 – 9
-I-20 - 9
2007 – 13
-I-20 - 12
-F-18 – 1
2008 – 10
2009 – 24
-I-20 – 18
-F-18 - 6

Again, the organizer (Chuck) said 20s and 18s are invited next year. Chuck did not say he was "phasing out" the 20 - he was repeating an argument he'd been given that the 20 was declining before making the flat statement that the race is about the sailors and the 20 was welcome as long as there was a class of them that wanted to come. Taking the "phase out" part out of contecxt is what has spun this up. Someone should step up and put the pin back in the grenade.

A few facts (in my opinion facts anyway)...

1) You will never get the I20 out of the hands of the mysterious Nacra Class. Many have tried including myself (I had many long phone conversations with Jack about this). So, the fact is I20 owners have little to no control over their class.

2) The F18 is the future of this type of catamaran sailing. Its is. Stop saying its not. I feel for Trey, Foggy, Jake, Jay, and all others that have significant funds invested in I20s, however current short term investments does not change the fact that the I20 class simply does not have the long term potential for growth that the F18 class does.

3) If the race were to switch to F18s today, people would sail them. Just like when the open racing went away people sailed Nacra 6.0s, and when Nacra 6.0s went away people sailed I20s. At each corner there was the normal resistance to what ended up being the natural progression of the sport.


From a media coverage point of view, I think the race is much better off head to head. Catamaran sailing is hard enough to explain to non-sailing viewers. To explain that a boat that (as an example) finished third to the beach won the race because of a rating. Yeah.

I dont care what boat is sailed, I personally prefer the I20 over the F18. I simply believe right now that F18 has more long term potential, and again I think this race should be head to head, and that the playing field should be somewhat controlled as either one-design or formula.

My motivation is to see the race in a format where I might, might, be able to convince a sponsor to cover our costs to film the entire week. This in turn would pull in more coverage, which makes it easier for 1) Chuck to get sponsors and 2) the sailors to get sponsors. Putting on a marketing hat, Id like to see 30 F18s, racing head to head, with top sailors not just from the US, but from around the world, all on boats that have mandatory tricked out graphics covering the entire boat and sails.

Pretty pictures and close racing is what is needed, not handicapped racing!!!

As N20 sailors, we sure know who it should be - and he doesn't like to use a computer. He has our email addresses.

But Brian

The facts on the ground are not supporting the vision.

The original vision that Chuck promoted was a tough week long race that raised the bar over the weekend distance races.... A race for sailors... not a media blitz.

So.. the bullpen of F18 sailors racing in weekend distance races.... not so good.

It all depends on how you spin it... David and Goliath trying to get to the beach first on elapsed is a winning market plan

Two questions... can the organizers do the race on a limited budget.

Can the teams raise the money to fund the race for sailors supported by sailors model.

if one of those can't survive... you have a problem.

It is a Nacra 20 sailor that is stirring this shitpot and is misrepresenting even a conversation that took place today during which he was even further assured that he had misunderstood what was said. What responsibility Chuck has was already accepted and clarified. Even before I saw this ridiculous thread I'd posted on the official site that the 20s are invited back. Take responsibility. You start imagining that Chuck "owes" you something and I think it will be a short ride.

Brian,
Put about 50lbs on your spindly little frame, start looking for a 130 lb crew and still see if your so gung ho about the F-18. It's NOT an option for guys like me,Tad, Trey, or Lee.
So when are you gonna bring those 30 F-18s? There were what 7 this year? Versus 17 N-20s. It's pretty obvious that J.W. has been the little bird in Chuck's ear, now it's looking like your on the other shoulder.
And JW ,I really didn't know you were so forgetful, I believe you were standing in Steudebakers when Chuck jumped on Mike's crate and started this race. He started it because Mike was going to the F-18ht, that sure seems to me that the race was created around the boat.What your saying Chuck said at the awards is NOT what was said and there's a whole lot of witnesses to prove it. Whether your lying ,forgetful, or just didn't hear him properly, your WRONG.

Todd Hart

Mark, your point is well taken, if the race can be maintained on a low budget by both the organizer and the sailors, then there is no issue. Race on.

My understanding is that this model is not sustainable by the organizer. Now, maybe thats just smoke being blown and we will continue on, but thats not what Ive been told. Again, my motivation is to help the race gain sponsorship, which cannot happen without media coverage.

Not that it matters but 160 + 50 + 130 = 340 lbs. Not sure what the issue is with that, Im sure there would be plenty of competition. Not sure why your taking this so personal or feel like you have to insult me to make your point.

Todd, I'm not wrong or forgetful on this point. Chuck keeps his own counsel, and the fact that you were there when Chuck stood up should be proof enough. Right now, this second, you are delusional. When you get back to earth, I'll take the beer and nothing more need be said.

Mark - yes I felt the race was good this year and though I didn't really even consider the handicap ratings, I was happy enough that we did have fleet scoring. I liked having the two fleets but never considered ourselves as actually racing against the F18s because one way or another some performance aspect of the boats was going to be the deciding factor - not my skill or my ability to adjust and manage the wind and sea conditions. I had a great time at the event and thought it was a great fleet - this conversation sure makes it seem otherwise ... but that's not the case.

Brian, you've mischaracterized my position - I actually think the F18 is the future of the race when that day comes. However, I do think it's silly to even think about it now until they show enough momentum to be self sustaining. I also don't believe that there is any significant section of F18 sailors that wouldn't do the race because there is also a Nacra 20 fleet so, again, I don't know why this whole thing keeps coming up. The 20 class has continued to surprise and show up in force while the F18 has just started to dangle a toe in the water after three years of being invited. It's also probable that three of those F18 teams would not have been there had not one of the 20 teams given them the help to put it together.


John, I deleted that post because it didn't really add anything and didn't have time to make one that did. I agree there is a symbiosis between the survival of the Tybee500 and the N20 but I don't think it's fair to say one could have survived without the other. The sailors that own and sail 20s have paid the large majority of the money, blood, sweat, and energy that have kept the Tybee alive. Also remember that one of the sparks that started the Tybee 500 was because the Worrell dictated a boat change that was unfavorable to several teams.





So where do I actually stand? I like sailing with both the F18 and N20 fleet (or any other fleet of significant size). I, obviously, don't think it is competitive to score them on handicap - but it's a relatively minor point in my opinion. I also don't care to hear about either class being excluded because it's just silly for everyone at this point. I also agree that if the Tybee grows to the point that they cap out entries at 30 and have to turn away 10 F18 teams that would have otherwise made it 30 F18 teams, then it makes sense to go F18 only.

What I really have an issue with is all this talk about F18 only now after the effort put forth by the predominantly Nacra 20 sailing teams. I mean, seriously, why even mention it? And before we talk about what was or wasn't said at the awards (I was not there), it has been talked about and discussed for nearly a year now from the authority. The Nacra 20 teams did make a significant impact on this event this and every prior year of it's running and if the Nacra 20 owning teams did not show up for the last 7 years, the Tybee500 would not be here today - we were told as much last year when it was said that the race couldn't survive any longer with 12 or less entries. Velocity, Royal, and Seacats alone built half of the fleet this year and they're all 20 based. These teams (Velocity and Royal mostly) put in enormous effort to bring in the additional teams on their own. Velocity brought in Sailing Anarchy which seems to have generated a great deal of exposure. We did so to keep it alive because we were promised it would die if we didn't so it should be expected for us to feel a little offended when the race starts mentioning excluding our current and favorite boats. While I don't think anyone completely disagrees with the notion, the timing, presentation, and the suggestion that it might be in the next two years is an utterly inappropriate way to say "thanks for helping us make the race survive".

A view form outside.

1, there are a number of teams in the US who have I20's.

2, There are many more F18 is the world. Hang on guys, don;t kill me yet.

3, This year, from the out side, it looked like it went OK with two types of boat on the course. (yes, the SI's might need tightening, but that is not the point here). And the wind-on-course favoured the 18's this year.

4, People from outside the US, I BELIEVE, will not buy an I20 to enter this race. Making it I20 ONLY would ensure no-one outside current ownership group (or charter), would enter the race.

5, If you want the race to grow, you need a boat option that is attractive to non-us residents. This, IMO, menas to grow the race, you need the F18

6, Given the sucess of this year, and a hope of an improving economic situation, I would HOPE you'll get more F18's next year (and keep the same no of I20's).

7, the race limit of 30?, is that because of "beach space" or simply getting 2 flights of 15 thru the surf? Why not 3 flights of 15 or even 4.

8, If the Aruba regatta can get most of the boats in via container, I do not see whay you could not get a container full from this side of the pond, the only issue is shoreside support and trailers / towing.

What I heard Chuck say was that he thought the F-18 was the future of the race, but next year would be the same as this year, and the question of fleets would be revisited then. He did express his dislike of handicap racing, but said that the 20's would be welcome in the coming years if there was a viable fleet. I think that when entries get to the 30 boat cap or class participation falters then maybe it will be time to change the program. What I got from what Chuck said was that the 20's will be welcome as long as the fleet is strong. I think Chuck was looking down the road when he said the F-18 was the future. There is merit in this statement, not just in this race, but in racing in general. Just 2 more cents from someone that was there.

I just received a call from Chuck Bargeron and he said he did not mean what he said. The reason, I assume, that JW knew what he meant was because he told me he asked JW to take over for him because he was "loosing it" from lack of sleep.I think JW just heard more than we did.
He told me that he never intended to throw the N-20 to the curb and as long as we bring enough numbers for a fleet ,we'll always be in the race. Read Larry's/cat in the Hat post .Chuck was quite upset with me for not calling him to verify what he said. I take people for their word , he just said the wrong thing and has corrected himself.
BK and JW, I would love to further the N-20 clas but I would never stick a knife in the back of a rival class to do it. Some of the stuff the two of you said in the above posts sure seems that you have no problem with that. If I was a Squirrel headed midget or stickman commentator I'd be sailing on an F-18 I think they are great boats. I have no beef with the class it's just not suited for my weight but until you start bringing more numbers to the bigger races your just blowing smoke. Check the numbers!
Todd

I hate to do this again.. butt, who is BLR with 99 posts?

I called Chuck as well, and he basically said the same thing that he said to Todd. While I certainly understand that he didn't mean what he said, in my dealings with Chuck, he's always been a guy I could take at his word. Its probably why we were all so alarmed.

Chuck mentioned to me that the only reason he even said anything regarding the future of the 20 is because he fears for its future given the lack of development on the platform. I don't know whether its the lack of development of the 20 class, or the fact that the F18 class is constantly evolving - its kind of hard to gauge the status of a class when measured against a moving target.

BLR is Brett Robinson.

Todd, I've never talked down another class. I walk away from those that do. My view of the 20 and its future are based on the numbers. Good participation in regattas for the last couple of years - a noticable uptic and a welcome sight. Now, how many new ones were built in that time? Say, last year? This year? If you're hanging your hat on those numbers, you'll be asking to borrow my hat in short order. It is a great boat, as was the 6.0. I was very active in both those classes at one time. The 20, unless you guys do something, is headed down the same road. The only "knife in the back" posts I've seen today are from 20 drivers who are after their manufacturer - equally unwise.

The problem here John, is like Todd said... there is no alternative for some of us 20 sailors.

I'm the offspring of man who almost played for the Denver Nuggets. I'm not going to shrink, and finding someone who is 130lbs to sail a 500 mile race with me isn't going to be likely.

Then it is a good thing there is a Tybee 500 and several other races for you. I hope that the 20s keep coming out as they have been. But take it from someone who has been through it - once the manufacturer stops making the flavor you like, there is only so long you can "grow." After that, it is "maintain." Definitely spend time talking with Brian and Ding about the steps they took to try and get control of the class rules - don't repeat mistakes. Get the builder happy and satisfied that there is a market. Trashing them on the internets is suicide.

Now whatever you do don't try and tie this comment to any manufacturer. It is simply as question from an observer.

What about a new 20? say with an updated hull shape and rig?

Would there be demand for it?