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Re: TYBEE 500 HOTLINE [Re: Wouter] #178445
05/17/09 10:11 AM
05/17/09 10:11 AM
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 3,528
Looking for a Job, I got credi...
scooby_simon Offline
Hull Flying, Snow Sliding....
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[quote=Wouter][/quote]

edit

I cannot be arsed to argue with you Wouter. You have your view, and most have another view.

Last edited by scooby_simon; 05/17/09 10:13 AM.

F16 - GBR 553 - SOLD

I also talk sport here
-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: TYBEE 500 HOTLINE [Re: scooby_simon] #178446
05/17/09 10:20 AM
05/17/09 10:20 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
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Quote

I cannot be arsed to argue with you Wouter. You have your view, and most have another view.



No my dear friend. YOU have a different viewpoint.

Don't equate that with the viewpoints that the rest of the populace may or may not have.

The data on which I based my comments have been detailed; and it can not be said that I misrepresented the data as it is accessibly for everybody to check.

You MAY differ in the interpretation of this this data set. But any difference there don't necessesarily equate to one being wrong and the other being right. So your stated OPINION suggesting otherwise was uncalled for.

Now, I leave you "to butt" with yourself.

Wouter

Last edited by Wouter; 05/17/09 10:20 AM.

Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: TYBEE 500 HOTLINE [Re: Wouter] #178447
05/17/09 10:47 AM
05/17/09 10:47 AM
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 3,528
Looking for a Job, I got credi...
scooby_simon Offline
Hull Flying, Snow Sliding....
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Originally Posted by Wouter
Quote

I cannot be arsed to argue with you Wouter. You have your view, and most have another view.



No my dear friend. YOU have a different viewpoint.

Don't equate that with the viewpoints that the rest of the populace may or may not have.

The data on which I based my comments have been detailed; and it can not be said that I misrepresented the data as it is accessibly for everybody to check.

You MAY differ in the interpretation of this this data set. But any difference there don't necessesarily equate to one being wrong and the other being right. So your stated OPINION suggesting otherwise was uncalled for.

Now, I leave you "to butt" with yourself.

Wouter


I do not differ with you analysis of the data for the Tybee 500 for this year. All it proves is if the wind is in the right direction and at the right strength, F18's can carry their kites more than N20's.

I'd suggest that anyone could have worked that out by simply looking at the race, and what happened. No need for stats analysis.



Now who's going to enter next year?


F16 - GBR 553 - SOLD

I also talk sport here
Re: TYBEE 500 HOTLINE [Re: Wouter] #178448
05/17/09 10:59 AM
05/17/09 10:59 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,021
Australia
macca Offline
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Australia
Wouter,

May I suggest (as I have previously) that you spend less time this summer in front of a keyboard and a little more time on the water.

The rest of us would appreciate your analysis more if you personally had some grip of the context that you are relating to...


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Re: TYBEE 500 HOTLINE [Re: Mary] #178462
05/17/09 04:07 PM
05/17/09 04:07 PM
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 235
JJ_ Offline
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Hat tip to Dave Krantz and his highly readable coverage of Team Zhike. Look forward to his comments tomorrow. Actually kind of nice to read a Dad worrying!

One good of many.


Re: TYBEE 500 HOTLINE [Re: macca] #178476
05/17/09 10:34 PM
05/17/09 10:34 PM
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 539
taipanfc Offline
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Originally Posted by macca
Wouter,

May I suggest (as I have previously) that you spend less time this summer in front of a keyboard and a little more time on the water.

The rest of us would appreciate your analysis more if you personally had some grip of the context that you are relating to...


You mean, put your money where your mouth is? Haha!

Re: TYBEE 500 HOTLINE [Re: ] #178522
05/18/09 08:11 AM
05/18/09 08:11 AM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 66
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CatInTheHat Offline
journeyman
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We had paddles and used them as did many of the other boats. Not sure why they wern't seen. We particularly used them in cocoa with a good start, and were slower to use them in fernandina with a bad start. Our start in Daytona was complicated by a boat washing back on us and subsequent upper casting failure leading to a beaching and rudder change. But no doubt, paddles are KEY.

Re: TYBEE 500 HOTLINE [Re: CatInTheHat] #178530
05/18/09 08:37 AM
05/18/09 08:37 AM
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 712
mikekrantz Offline
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I've got to give a lot of credit and thanks to my father/Dave Krantz for covering the Tybee 500. He normally writes about hunting and fishing, but decided to give it a shot as a "outdoor adventure" story. He's not a sailor, so it's written from a completely different point of view. However he exposed us to an audience that we rarely reach. We had over 2,000,000 hits per day, and ESPN still has us on the front page. Hopefully we'll pick up some new sailors from this exposure.

My favorite column is today's notes and comments - http://sports.espn.go.com/outdoors/general/news/story?id=4172880

Re: TYBEE 500 HOTLINE [Re: mikekrantz] #178536
05/18/09 08:56 AM
05/18/09 08:56 AM

A
andrewscott
Unregistered
andrewscott
Unregistered
A



Hats off and congrats to all that raced, ground crewed, reported on and help run!

Amazing event, and testament to the caliber of everyone involved.

Re: TYBEE 500 HOTLINE [Re: CatInTheHat] #178538
05/18/09 08:57 AM
05/18/09 08:57 AM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 66
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CatInTheHat Offline
journeyman
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2 more issues:
1) exclusion zone - Its virtually impossible to assure as you aproach the 1st mark on what is usually a tight reach that you don't violate an imaginary line from the beach to that mark, but with a gps and these 4 0r 5 waypoints, you can be very sure to make sure you round each one, and that is what the rule should be. we missed the first on last year due to our own gps error, and took a penalty, as did two boats this year. Mischa would have won even with an extra hour of penalty, however, he did get a pretty good advantage on missing the first mark, so if you wanted to construct the "perfect" penalty that wouldn't outright disqualify, but would properly penalize, I would propose taking the estimated time of the "benefit" by using the gps tracks of the penalizer and comparing them to the person who is closest in time to them at the current stage of the race (In this case Steve or JC) and then add that time(i.e. if Mischa had travelled the extra x mile at Steve's speed), PLUS a time penalty, 20, 40, min or whatever, it may be more "fair" and increase compliance. That being said, the first mark is a shipping channel, and so when you are approaching it, you think its not part of the exclusion zone and thats why we skipped it last year and likely why Mischa did this year. ( I know, we shoulda read the SI better). We should all try better however to be compliant as a group effort and eliminate this constant point of contention in the race.

2) I-20 vs F-18. They each have their strong spots and weak spots. I would personally eliminate the handicap and let the fastest boat win!

Re: TYBEE 500 HOTLINE [Re: CatInTheHat] #178570
05/18/09 10:51 AM
05/18/09 10:51 AM
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 3,655
Portland, Maine
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ThunderMuffin Offline
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As for the Exclusion zone - I propose a DNF for the day's leg as a penalty. Thats last place finisher plus 8 hours IIRC.


Re: TYBEE 500 HOTLINE [Re: ThunderMuffin] #178579
05/18/09 11:36 AM
05/18/09 11:36 AM

A
andrewscott
Unregistered
andrewscott
Unregistered
A



As a risk to national security, I say shoot a tomahawk missile up the offenders transom... that'll learn em'

Re: TYBEE 500 HOTLINE [Re: ] #178588
05/18/09 12:20 PM
05/18/09 12:20 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline
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I had a great time last week! grin


Jake Kohl
Re: TYBEE 500 HOTLINE [Re: Jake] #178595
05/18/09 12:52 PM
05/18/09 12:52 PM
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 3,355
Key Largo, FL and Put-in-Bay, ...
RickWhite Offline

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Key Largo, FL and Put-in-Bay, ...
Sorry I had to miss the awards party Sunday, but I had a hot date with a babe at a hotel in SC. She didn't show until 2AM though and couldn't wake me up.
Getting old aint for girly-boys. grin
Rick


Rick White
Catsailor Magazine & OnLineMarineStore.com
www.onlinemarinestore.com
Re: TYBEE 500 HOTLINE [Re: RickWhite] #178607
05/18/09 01:22 PM
05/18/09 01:22 PM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,969
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brucat Offline
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Great job by all who sailed, organized, cheered, etc. etc. etc. Millions of hits and ESPN coverage??? That’s incredible!

Some items from this board to be considered in lessons learned meetings for next year…

1. The OCS that was referenced was actually handled by the RC as required by the SIs:

“10.4 It is the responsibility of the team to know the position of the boat and whether or not they are over the line early. No recall flags will be flown (amends RRS 26). If necessary, a postponement will be signaled by 4 long sounds (Amends RRS 27.3). A boat’s hull or spinnaker pole is considered its leading edge, and a 15-minute penalty will be assessed for any boat over the starting line early.”

If it is truly a burden for the RC to fly a flag and blow a horn, then continue this practice (no recall flags), but expect the negative PR to continue. I can’t personally see this as a burden, but there may be mitigating factors that we’re not aware of over the web.

2. Finishing with ground crew:

Per the SIs: “11.2 …A maximum of two ground crew from each team may be on the course side (OCS) of the gate to assist a boat with finishing. If a boat receives assistance by more than two ground crew while OCS and not finished, it may be subject to penalty and/or disqualification at the discretion of the Race Committee. Emergency assistance may be provided in the surf as per SI (10.6).”

Per the RRS Definitions: “Finish: A boat finishes when any part of her hull, or crew or equipment in normal position, crosses the finishing line in the direction of the course from the last mark, either for the first time or after taking a penalty under rule 44.2 or, after correcting an error made at the finishing line, under rule 28.1.”

Seems like a case can be made that the ground crew in question did more than allowed by the SIs to “assist the boat with finishing” as defined in the RRS as “crossing the finishing line.” Unless there was an emergency, I would consider protesting this under outside assistance, and/or fair sailing.

3. Exclusion Zone and discretionary penalties:

Discretionary penalties are not a new concept, and in the hands of a seasoned jury, can be very effective. There have been a few OK ideas here, but here’s what I’ve seen that works remarkably well for Optis of all things (KISS), usually to enforce safety rules…

DSQ is always an option, but when there are good reasons for not going that far, using a standard such as 20% and 40%, often helps. (The 20% already exists in the RRS for certain offenses such as ZFP, so it does have a solid basis.)

It is best practice to include these penalties in the SIs, so there is less “questioning” after the fact (although there will always be whiners). Having a written standard to follow, rather than pulling a time penalty out of a hat, will help your jury’s PR tremendously.

Following KISS, for the case of the exclusion zone, there would seem to be a need for zero tolerance, since if the government gets involved, the future of the race itself may be endangered to some degree.

I would therefore suggest that if someone “cuts a corner” that’s a DSQ for that leg (score like DNF). The main logic for this is, besides the obvious issues with the military, they did not even sail the correct course (RRS string rule).

Now, if someone breaches the zone but unwinds, a 20% discretionary penalty can be used. This is typically scored as points equal to 20% of the fleet size. However, since this is a timed event, the most logical thing might be to make the penalty equal to 20% of the time difference between the first and last finishers for that leg.

Again, since the Exclusion zone has bigger-picture implications, 40% may be more effective.

And, since it’s always fun to play with Wouter, what are you smoking now??? “Real” elapsed times for people that don’t follow the rules (OCS) or sail the course correctly (exclusion zone)? Wow…

Mike

Re: TYBEE 500 HOTLINE [Re: Jake] #178614
05/18/09 01:40 PM
05/18/09 01:40 PM
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,152
tampa, fl
K
ksurfer2 Offline
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tampa, fl
Originally Posted by Jake
I had a great time last week! grin


Ditto Jake. All those miles and all those hours on the water and you got me by what......17 minutes. Damn! Props to Tawd too. Maybe he'll share the location of that worm-hole he sailed through on the last day.


If your havin girl problems i feel bad for you son
I got 99 problems but my beautiful wife ain't one
Re: TYBEE 500 HOTLINE [Re: ksurfer2] #178622
05/18/09 01:57 PM
05/18/09 01:57 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Jake  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Originally Posted by ksurfer2
Originally Posted by Jake
I had a great time last week! grin


Ditto Jake. All those miles and all those hours on the water and you got me by what......17 minutes. Damn! Props to Tawd too. Maybe he'll share the location of that worm-hole he sailed through on the last day.


No kidding - I only needed 4 minutes on that crusty O.B. and when he split from behind me to head to shore about 12 miles out of Fernandina, I thought "Wow!, Todd just gave me a gift!". Turns out he thought I was ahead of him in the standings and felt that he needed to try something to gain on me.

It was absolutely incredible how close everyone - and I mean EVERYONE was...every boat length counted - every second of the day. It was one of the most mentally draining Tybee's I've ever been part of (but one of the easiest physically).


Jake Kohl
Re: TYBEE 500 HOTLINE [Re: Jake] #178630
05/18/09 02:15 PM
05/18/09 02:15 PM
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 3,655
Portland, Maine
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ThunderMuffin Offline
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Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 3,655
Portland, Maine
I saw those clouds over the land and wanted to go in. But I was having funny dueling with Jared and the Blue Wombat out offshore so I stuck around out there.

Jared is pretty damn good at protecting himself, I tried no less than 5 times to get around him and failed everytime.

Nice sailing buddy smile


Re: TYBEE 500 HOTLINE [Re: ThunderMuffin] #178725
05/18/09 08:22 PM
05/18/09 08:22 PM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 66
C
CatInTheHat Offline
journeyman
CatInTheHat  Offline
journeyman
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 66
man i miss the race already. wish we could be still heading up the coast. wish i could make great texas.

i hope the next big thing will be a distance race in the fall. its a long time to wait to sail like that again...

Re: TYBEE 500 HOTLINE [Re: CatInTheHat] #178759
05/18/09 11:44 PM
05/18/09 11:44 PM
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 736
Westport, Ma. U.S.A.
Brian_Mc Offline
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Brian_Mc  Offline
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Posts: 736
Westport, Ma. U.S.A.
I think Mike's dad(good writer!) was right in calling all the competitors "winners". Congrats to all of the competitors, their teams, and the RC. Major kudos to Tad, Trey, and the Velocity teams for their great success at building the event's participation! Loved all the coverage. Tad, that is a really well written wrap up you posted. Thanks again, Brian

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