I am sure Doug Lord wont agree with your statement. LOL

I agree. Bruce foils yes, not full lifting foils. But sure would be nice to see those multi-million dollar budgets focused on flying...

Careful, the mere mention of that name may unleash his furry on this forum.

Release his FURRY? (Not sure I like the sound of that...)

Furry what?

FOIL, of course

that's where the cry of horror

FOILED AGAIN

came from

Doug Lord may not, but I do !

Wouter

The comments about crew safety if one goes over was pretty poignant.

How do you fall roughly 9 stories 'safely'? Bungee?

I like the VX 40 because of the mesh trampoline allowing crew to hold on if they go over. Perhaps something like this will be used on the mega-monster-giant boats?

Big boats tend to be faster than small boats, so the big cats should become foilborne in less wind than Moths - provided taht their total density (total boat weight/total boat volume) is lower than that of a Moth. For comparison, the total density of an ORMA Open 60 is more or less the same as styrofoam.

If the venue would be in an area of strong winds, foils would certainly be used for stability and very likely for 100% foilborne sailing downwind. Banana foils to assist stability could be seen in BMW Oracle since it saw daylight.

On the other hand, if the race will be in a light wind area - as Alinghi's design seems to indicate - the banana foils won't be necessary and 100% foilborne downwind sailing will be unlikely.

Let's wait and see.

It is a very long way from a 11 foot Moth to a 90 foot Multicupper. Extrapolating any data or experience from the moth to a Dogzilla's is fantasy.

To give an example; the 90 ft dogzilla's will not even encounter significant form drag all the way up to 14.6 knots; a speed at which the Moth sailors will be crying with exitement. Afterall their cross-over point is already to be found at 5.1 knots.

The dogzilla's are expected to go close to 30 knots and that means a wing loading that is at least 4 times that of a 15 knot Moth. All well outside the scope of extrapolation.

If foiling was such a magic trick then the last C-class challenge would not have seen the full foiling version being amputated with a grinder.

Moths were VERY limited in the waterline length and maximal attainable power (due to limited width) and there foiling allowed for a significant jump in performance (about 20%); however in the Australian portsmouth rating they are still on a par with the Hobie 16.

Another lesson in the difference in relative performance compared to absolute performance.

Wouter

Wouter,

I just loved this quote "however in the Australian portsmouth rating they (foiling moths) are still on a par with the Hobie 16."

I think that some of the work done with the SYZ foiler could come into play here. I do not think it will, but they sail in the same series of races the EB does and have connections to Alinghi. Time will tell though. I think it would be a huge project to take what SYZ has learned over all their trial phases and apply it to a catamaran this size.

From the horses mouth.
"In fact Vrolijk isn’t convinced foilers are any faster and they did the research. In the early stages they employed designer Sebastien Schmidt to do a study on what it would take to make Bertarelli's 41ft cat, Le Black, foil and they also had a meeting with the L’Hydroptere team who were keen for them to build a bit inshore version of their foiler tri. According to Vrolijk their VPP has shown the foilers to be occasionally as fast, but no faster than their cat with its long and exceeding fine hulls.

“This system is not easy to put on two foils, so you have to put it on more foils and then you add it up and it doesn’t work. It flies, but it is not fast! Plus all the problems with controlling the foils. Maybe in 10 years….”

They're using the wrong experts. They should have hired Ketterman...

Mike

build it and they will come...

Wouter,

The C Class has limited dimensions and limited sail area, while the current AC boats have limited dimensions and unlimited sail area. This contributes to make extrapolation unreasonable. The moth is indeed a special case, also unreasonable to extrapolate.

I think the 90ft X 90ft platform could benefit from foils that increase stability (Bruce foils), allowing for more sail area - which is unlimited - to be carried in that same platform.

Alinghi ressearched hydrofoil configurations very seriously, including that of my boat, while everyone knows that BMW Oracle already used banana foils. I suggest we wait for a while before discarding foils.

I'm on record for several years now as believing in bruce foils in partial lift uses and not believing in full foiling for larger craft that race normal courses.

So we agree actually.

Wouter

Nice. No doubt. I'll tell Dan and Greg that the next time I see 'em that they should go work for those guys.

Check out this gem:



J

You gotta sail the Tri-foiler to believe it!!!

100% pure sail-gasm!!!!

My favorite is were hes racing the power/speed boat and hes coasting along and the power boat is getting beat all to heck