Just wondering how many people would be interested in putting out the cash for a carbon fiber mast for their beech cat.

How much would you be willing to spend (seriously)
What is your type of boat

Just a little survey out of interest.

I could probably make one with the aid of my laminates expert friend.... but it'd be mucho expensive, and I don't know if I could trust it as much as my trusty bent aluminum mast

For a while, I was considering setting up a business to fabricate parts for hobies and other cats out of CF. But then, it struck me that for the most part, the people willing to buy CF parts would be the people willing to buy the big buck cats like the inters that already have CF factory installed.

I plan on keeping my H21 and have thought that when I go for new sails(3yrs), that would be the time to get rid of the beast mast. Do any company's have the know how on how this would effect boat balance(less weight,c/e)and design it in?
How much do CF mast run. Thanks

I would put one on now if I could find one. Does anyone have one for a 6.0 for sale?

If anything it sure would make rigging easier. I wonder what the actual weight savings would be if any?

AJ
Express 6.0

Hi Mike, By the way are you the Mike that was here in Dunedin this winter? There can't be too many guys named Mike that live in Niagara with a H21.

While not class legal(shouldn't be a problem)you would probably cut the weight by half at least. Reducing weight aloft is a good thing not to mention having to raise it.

As far as costs go I was looking at the Mystere parts list and the Viper has a carbon mast listed and I think it was around $3700. That mast is 34ft. tall. I'm not sure if that is in US funds or Canadian. You probably know if that's in Canadian funds you can deduct about a third from that.

Mike

Hi Mike, That's me. Have you finished rigging your Mystere yet? That was you riviting the mast?
Learned a lot down there this year, and am looking forward to next year. Mike, I would like to get h21 Dave's e-mail address if you see him. Thanks

Will CF prices come down anytime in the future?

hard to say....

if there is to much demand and not enough suppliers, then you could see current prices for a while.

December 17, 2002
EU Imposes $83M in Fines for Price-Fixing


BRUSSELS, Belgium (AP) - The European Commission on Tuesday fined 11 companies $83 million in two separate price-fixing scandals involving graphite and spices.

In the graphite cartel, eight companies were assessed a total of 60.6 million euro ($62.4 million)for violating EU competition rules between 1993 and 1998.

The Commission said that a two-year investigation found that the companies held regular meetings to divvy up the market and keep prices at inflated levels. Specialty graphites are used in everything from engineering to electronics.

Germany's SGL Carbon AG received the highest fine of 27.75 million euro ($28.57 million), while Japan's Toyo Tanso must pay 10.79 million euro ($11.11 million).

Other fines levied include 6.97 million euro ($7.18 million) for France's Carbon Lorraine SA, 6.97 million euro ($7.18 million) for Japan's Tokai Carbon Co., and 3.58 million euro ($3.69 million) for Ibiden Co. and Nippon Steel Chemical Co. also of Japan. Another two Japanese firms, Itech and Intech Inc. were fined 980,000 euro ($1 million).

SGL's fine was the highest ``because it was the ringleader,'' the Commission said, while the other companies got reductions in exchange for their cooperation in the probe. U.S.-based GraphTech International Ltd. was given immunity ``because it revealed the cartel,'' the Commission said.

I think if you do the math, a carbon stick is not going to get radiacaly cheaper then it is today.

First off, a Carbon mast that is properly made should be around 40% lighter for the same strength and flex characteristics then a standard al mast.

The second issue is cost. Assume Carbon cloth is 50-100 $ per pound in bulk.

A replacement mast for a 20 ft boat would weigh 30-38 lbs roughly complete. The bare tube would weigh about 26-34 lbs. Carbon is aprox 1/2 weight of the finished tube or 13-17 lbs with the remainder epoxy. So the bare minimum materials cost would be 700$ for the spar itself. More likely 1200$ in materials.

As far as labor goes, I can't estimate it. I know the difference between a finished DN iceyachtmast and a kit with peel ply exterior is about 300$. double this for a carbon cat stick or 600 to finish the luff grove, sand and paint the mast.

I would assume there is at least 10 hours of labour in laying up a mast, setting up the autoclave, cuting the luff grove, etc. figure on todays basis US manual labour is ~ 40$ per hour total costs.

You also need to sink the cost of a steam autoclave and a good vacume bagging setup to begin with. Building costs, mandrel.

all things considered, I think you could make a mast in the US for about 3000$ and make a profit.


Eric

Mike,I sent the info to your email.

The reason I ask is because I work in a composites shop and have availability of cnc equipment to make the mould just the tooling materials are a large cost.
Could you make one mast that would fit say hobie prindle nacra dart etc and then just cut the lenght to suit. Are the foil shapes very different?

Cost of Carbon. I was able to purchase a roll of 12 inch wide 9oz unidirection cloth for $600 canadian (about $400 USD)for 100 meters. An A-Class mast uses about 6 or 7 layers of 12 inch wide fiber plus another 2 layers of 2 inch wide strips on each side. THe 6 or 7 is based on how heavy the guy is and determines the mast stiffness. So the carbon uni cost would be about 240 feet at about $1.30 USD per foot. You would also need about a gallon of resin for around $100 USD. Thus the tube cost is not really all that bac if you have a mold. It gets expensive only when you are on your 2nd, 3rd or 4th try and keep screwing it up. Make no mistake, it is not that easy to make a good wrinkle free layup, unless you have lots of help and lots of experience. The beams i made for my A-class do not look so hot (but they work).

It strikes me cats are looking for three things from a mast, lowest weight, adequate stiffness and an aerodynamic shape. With a cat without spreaders ignoring the aerodynamics the most efficient shape is a tube and there is a cheap source of carbon fibre tube. That is pullwound tube.

I beleive that comes out to around $50/kg for bulk purchase so for a 15kg mast that is $750.

This would sort out the low weight and high stiffness. Perhaps you could than get the aeroshape by adding some other cheaper appendage. You would also have to add a mast track. But its still coming out well below $3000 and there is no tooling cost to cope with.

Well, maybe one more thing from it. At that cost I want it to be as durable as a alum. one.

Also if you race I think the hit you would take wouldn't be worth the perf. gains.
Mike

trying to add the mast track in the same fashion as the hobie internal tracks work is what I'm trying to figure out.

The problem is that the serious racers that might consider a CF mast (or could justify the expense) would loose the ability to race one design. I understand that a couple of N6.0na's in FL replaced their Aluminum masts with CF though. Distance racer's probably wouldn't be as concerned.

Eric:

That is a fair estimate of a carbon mast cost. However, it is based on current demand for carbon tubes. Remember aluminum masts were once very exotic and expensive items. We probably owe cheap aluminum masts to the "decorative street light" or something similar for making aluminum extrusions really cheap.

The price for small diameter (12mm- 35mm) carbon tubes has really dropped over the last 5 years. This is the result making everything from tennis rackets to flag holders out of carbon. The technology has changed too. Where they once layed up fabric over male molds, they now use knit tubes and rotary mandrels (they kind of look like a pasta maker) to form cold prepreg.

For larger tubes, they are now knitting over mandrels. You can make complex masts with this process and the labor costs are really low.


I predict cheaper light weight masts in the future but I am not convinced It will be carbon fiber as we know it. The carbon epoxy composites are suitable to light weight high quality structures. The are not easy to produce in large quantity. A different process that is better adapted to high volume could take over. For example, if the metal extrusion industry comes up with a really good metallic composite that can be worked by existing machinery, it could kill the volume carbon composite business.

You can race one-design with either carbon or aluminum spars in the Nacra 5.5u class. Yes, the carbon boats are faster.

If it was to become class legal in the future I would be willing to shell out the bucks necessary for a carbon stick.

This could be a future option for spinnaker boats that break their sticks Our minimum weight for our sticks are 26kg (I think)...... should be able to make a strong stick to stand up to the kite and still come well under that.