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Re: rudderd locking mechanism [Re: Sunvista] #190956
09/14/09 04:46 PM
09/14/09 04:46 PM
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,884
Detroit, MI
mbounds Offline
Pooh-Bah
mbounds  Offline
Pooh-Bah

Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,884
Detroit, MI
Originally Posted by Sunvista
Originally Posted by mbounds
When you lift the tiller arm, the pin bears against the end of the hook, the hook flexes, releasing the tiller arm, but not rotating the cam.

When you come in to the beach, the force of the bottom pushes the tip of the rudder aft, forcing the pin into the corner of the hook, releasing the tiller arm AND rotating the cam to the unlocked position.
HUH? You've just reworded my earlier post #190696. Up cam force bad....forward cam thrust good. In my case there was no slop so lifting or releasing the tiller arm didn't rotate the (chinzy plastic gusseted) cam...it just broke it off at the hook. One thing for certain, shearing a $15 plastic cam is clearly preferable to fracturing a $250 rudder. Either one will sit you on the beach though.


No, I didn't.

IF the pin is not seated in the corner of the hook when the rudder is locked down, THEN lifting straight up on the tiller arm will bend the hook and release the tiller arm without rotating the cam.

[Linked Image]

The old style (non-adjustable) rudder castings are a PITA to deal with. You've got to get the holes in the rudder just right for them to work properly.

-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: rudderd locking mechanism [Re: Sunvista] #190960
09/14/09 05:44 PM
09/14/09 05:44 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,252
California
mmiller Offline
veteran
mmiller  Offline
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Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,252
California
Originally Posted by Sunvista
lifting or releasing the tiller arm didn't rotate the (chinzy plastic gusseted) cam...it just broke it off at the hook. One thing for certain, shearing a $15 plastic cam


Grease is a cams friend. Failure to grease is what fails them... and they are only $7.50


Hobie Cat Forums
Matt Miller
Hobie Cat Company
Re: rudderd locking mechanism [Re: Tim H16] #190999
09/15/09 07:58 AM
09/15/09 07:58 AM
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 99
Virginia Beach
Sunvista Offline
journeyman
Sunvista  Offline
journeyman

Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 99
Virginia Beach
Originally Posted by Tim H16
Even though I have corrected the helm, slop and "break away" spring tension....
Hey, if it works...don't fix it. I thought about doing the silicone caulk with cellophane trick but I was worried that a blob of caulk, after it cured, would block access to the delrin adjuster screw. I'm still not totally convinced the cam is designed to rotate by lifting the rudder arm. That's a lot of leverage at the weakest point of a plastic part. In fact, I believe the cams are gusseted plastic and not brass or stainless for a reason. So that they will ultimately shear under stress and not destroy the rudders or castings.

Re: rudderd locking mechanism [Re: Tim H16] #191024
09/15/09 10:25 AM
09/15/09 10:25 AM
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 320
Albuquerque NM
Banzilla Offline
enthusiast
Banzilla  Offline
enthusiast

Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 320
Albuquerque NM
Originally Posted by Tim H16
I may also try following the section in David Hall's article where he shows how using RTV and plastic wrap on the lower rudder casting


I did this earlier in the season. I was able to get one of the rudders perfect the first time out and the other is still not working properly. Since I have to do a bottom job on one of the hulls now, I am planning a trying the RTV trick again. This time I think I am going to clean out all of the RTV, redrilling the rudder and than applying the RTV. Whereas I had applied the RTV and than Drilled the rudder before.

Sam


Sail Like you have a Pair
Re: rudderd locking mechanism [Re: Banzilla] #191142
09/16/09 05:58 PM
09/16/09 05:58 PM
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 70
Sodus NY
h16bill Offline
journeyman
h16bill  Offline
journeyman

Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 70
Sodus NY
Just to reiterate what Matt said these assemblies must be greased to work properly. A dab of grease between the plunger and the cam is essential.

I once replaced a cam and the first time I went to pop the rudder up the cam stuck down. :-( I greased it and it worked fine from then on.

cheers
Bill

Re: rudderd locking mechanism [Re: mbounds] #191184
09/17/09 09:23 AM
09/17/09 09:23 AM
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 921
Alachua, FL
Mugrace72 Offline
old hand
Mugrace72  Offline
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 921
Alachua, FL
Originally Posted by mbounds


No. You really only need the upper casting.


You don't even need a new upper casting. It is pretty easy to remove the fixed crosspin, cut a slot and fit the adjustable cam plate and screw. I have done this to two older boats with no problems.

To cut the slot simply drill a hole where each end should be, drill as many similar holes in between those as you can and file out the remaining metal to form the slot. Borrow a later casting to use as a guide if you can.

To complete the job, you might want to drill and tap the lower casting for the small rake adjusting screw, but I'm not sure how important that is. Matt Bounds might have an opinion.


Jack Woehrle
Hobie Wave #100, Tiger Shark III
HCA-NA 5022-1
USSailing 654799E
Alachua FL/Put-In-Bay
Re: rudderd locking mechanism [Re: Mugrace72] #191770
09/23/09 11:29 AM
09/23/09 11:29 AM
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 7
Panama City Beach, FL
Tim H16 Offline
stranger
Tim H16  Offline
stranger

Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 7
Panama City Beach, FL
Cutting the slot in the top of the castings would not be that difficult. The old style castings do not have any raised edges for the cam plate to slide on. How did you solve that?


Tim
'82 H16
Sail #88863 Blue Prism
Re: rudderd locking mechanism [Re: mbounds] #192466
10/01/09 12:35 PM
10/01/09 12:35 PM
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 7
Panama City Beach, FL
Tim H16 Offline
stranger
Tim H16  Offline
stranger

Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 7
Panama City Beach, FL
Thanks Matt for the advice.

I just replaced my old upper rudder castings with a nice used set of adjustable upper rudder castings from PreSailed Parts. What a difference, the cams unlock when you lift the tiller now and I was able to rake the rudders more so the weather helm is just right with a raked mast.


Tim
'82 H16
Sail #88863 Blue Prism
Re: rudderd locking mechanism [Re: Tim H16] #192621
10/04/09 11:26 PM
10/04/09 11:26 PM
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 749
Santa Cruz, CA
SurfCityRacing Offline
old hand
SurfCityRacing  Offline
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 749
Santa Cruz, CA
Maybe this will help:


Re: rudderd locking mechanism [Re: SurfCityRacing] #195322
11/04/09 03:33 AM
11/04/09 03:33 AM
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 1
T
touchngo Offline
stranger
touchngo  Offline
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T

Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 1
Was looking at the You Tube vid and got me to thinking. The axle holes for the CAMS in my castings have become eliptical over time, so that the CAMS can move about quite a bit. Has anyone got suggestions on how to repair them? Should I drill out and use a bigger set screw for the axle (or whatever kind of screw thing that it is) or fill it all in with epoxy and redrill (will epoxy even bond with the casting)?

Appreciate any comments you may have.

Cheers, PT.

Re: rudderd locking mechanism [Re: touchngo] #195541
11/06/09 01:08 PM
11/06/09 01:08 PM
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 19
Tampa, FL
A
AV8RSailor Offline OP
stranger
AV8RSailor  Offline OP
stranger
A

Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 19
Tampa, FL
Sounds to me like it would be simpler to find some new or used castings. The newer adjustible ones seem to be a huge improvement.

Antony


Antony Dalton
1981 Hobie 16 "Road Kill"
1994 Catalina 30 MKIII "Bliss"
Re: rudderd locking mechanism [Re: touchngo] #196404
11/15/09 05:56 PM
11/15/09 05:56 PM
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,884
Detroit, MI
mbounds Offline
Pooh-Bah
mbounds  Offline
Pooh-Bah

Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,884
Detroit, MI
Originally Posted by touchngo
Was looking at the You Tube vid and got me to thinking. The axle holes for the CAMS in my castings have become eliptical over time, so that the CAMS can move about quite a bit. Has anyone got suggestions on how to repair them? Should I drill out and use a bigger set screw for the axle (or whatever kind of screw thing that it is) or fill it all in with epoxy and redrill (will epoxy even bond with the casting)?

Appreciate any comments you may have.

Cheers, PT.


Do a Google search for HTS-2000 brazing rods. Never personally used the stuff, but for a small repair like that, they sound like the ticket.

Re: rudderd locking mechanism [Re: Tim H16] #196841
11/18/09 04:52 PM
11/18/09 04:52 PM
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 921
Alachua, FL
Mugrace72 Offline
old hand
Mugrace72  Offline
old hand

Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 921
Alachua, FL
Originally Posted by Tim H16
Cutting the slot in the top of the castings would not be that difficult. The old style castings do not have any raised edges for the cam plate to slide on. How did you solve that?


Sorry for the late response.

When I did it the first time I had never seen the inside of the factory adjustable arms. When I installed the plate and tightened the bolt, I relized that it needed a spacer of some sort, so I just stacked a few SS washers until it was standing proud enough to engage in the cam.

It worked perfectly and it was only when I bought a newer boat that I saw the cast-in rails inside the arm.



Jack Woehrle
Hobie Wave #100, Tiger Shark III
HCA-NA 5022-1
USSailing 654799E
Alachua FL/Put-In-Bay
Re: rudderd locking mechanism [Re: AV8RSailor] #289089
04/03/19 07:07 AM
04/03/19 07:07 AM
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 70
Sodus NY
h16bill Offline
journeyman
h16bill  Offline
journeyman

Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 70
Sodus NY
I have been pondering this for a while because the local sheriffs camp has about 20 16s and 14s that we are helping with. The rudder systems are horrid. Mostly old non adjustable castings. I had an idea for a simple modification that I would like to run by you guys. The old castings use a ss tube in a hole through the upper casting that is flared on both ends to hold it in place. What if I drilled that out and drilled/ filed adjacent to it to make a slot. Then replace the tube with a 1/4-20 bolt and nut with some star washers for grip. This could be adjusted in the newly made slots to get a proper lock down. The slot would only have to go towards the cam since these old systems are always loose.

What do you guys think?

Re: rudderd locking mechanism [Re: AV8RSailor] #289091
04/04/19 11:39 AM
04/04/19 11:39 AM
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 125
Clinton, Mississippi
rattlenhum Offline
member
rattlenhum  Offline
member

Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 125
Clinton, Mississippi
That certainly sounds doable and easier/cheaper than the old EX Raker. A few thoughts (that you may have already considered):

If, like many old boats, there's excessive slop in other parts of the system (gudgeons, rudder pins, holes in castings for the rudder pins), this mod may not be real helpful in and of itself. It's hard to describe well in words, but, if there's slop elsewhere and the new slot is wide enough, it will likely be possible to slide the new bolt so far forward in relation to the pin/sister screws on which the cam rides that the cam will not have enough clearance to rotate properly. (This can occur with the modern adjustable system and the EZ Raker as well.) If adjusted with the rudder locked down, the cam will be bound and not rotate up; if adjusted with the rudder up, the bolt will be blocked before the cam is rotated all the way down. In such case if the bolt is slid back enough for proper cam rotation, the rudder will likely still trail back due to the excessive slop elsewhere causing unwanted tiller load. I guess the bottom line is that this mod cannot remove excessive slop located elsewhere in the system. While the rudder should lock/unlock better than it does now, this mod may not fully achieve the desired result without new rudder pins and/or gudgeon/casting bushings.

The length of the new bolt that will be inside the casting should not be threaded (for increased shear strength and minimization of damage to the cam).

This sounds like a lot of work, but for a great cause. Perhaps a local machine shop would contribute (free or reduced cost) services toward all of the needed mods in exchange for some public recognition?

I believe your idea has a lot of merit and would like to hear others' thoughts.....maybe you should revive this old Hobie Forum thread?: https://www.hobie.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=63204

Good luck and please let us know how this works out!


Jerome Vaughan
Hobie 16
Clinton, Mississippi
Re: rudderd locking mechanism [Re: AV8RSailor] #289092
04/04/19 10:57 PM
04/04/19 10:57 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 731
Home is where the harness is.....
Will_R Offline
old hand
Will_R  Offline
old hand

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 731
Home is where the harness is.....
Sorry, but you all are getting way over complicated here.

There is a method that we called, "cutoff cams" that is super simple and works really well. No parts to buy, machine, etc.

Will have to see if I can find instructions online.

Re: rudderd locking mechanism [Re: rattlenhum] #289100
04/26/19 06:34 AM
04/26/19 06:34 AM
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 70
Sodus NY
h16bill Offline
journeyman
h16bill  Offline
journeyman

Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 70
Sodus NY
I think I can cobble together a jig to hold the upper casting on a drill press in the right orientation. I think 1/4” of adjustment is all that will be required. Drill one hole next to the current hole and then use the drill bit like an end mill to create the slot. Of course this will not solve other worn parts but it will allow a bit of adjustment. If I get the ambition I’m going to try this on an old set of upper castings I have.

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