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Carbon Fiber rotary-weaver video... #194987
10/30/09 09:02 AM
10/30/09 09:02 AM
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Tony_F18 Offline OP
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I had'nt seen this before but this is used by Lexus for one of their new sportscars.
Apparently there only two of these weavers in the world but it looks very complex and impressive.
Could this technique also be used to make boat parts?
Looks great for making long parts like masts etc.

The video is listed on this website:
http://www.autoblog.com/2009/10/29/video-weaving-the-lexus-lfas-carbon-fiber-a-pillar/

-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: Carbon Fiber rotary-weaver video... [Re: Tony_F18] #195002
10/30/09 12:13 PM
10/30/09 12:13 PM
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Timbo Offline
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Hey any carbon fiber experts out there, I have a question:

How much weight, expressed as a percentage, will building a boat out of carbon cloth save vs. the same layup schedule in "regular" fiberglas mat?

Example; if you built say 2 Inter 20 hulls, in the same mold, one hull useing carbon cloth, the other uses fiberglass, how much ligter would the carbon hull be, same amount of resin, same amount of foam sandwich, and same gelcoat on each?

Or...is part of the carbon weight savings in that you don't need as many layers of cloth, because it's stiffer?

Manshed, do you know how much weight you are saving using carbon instead of glass?


Blade F16
#777
Re: Carbon Fiber rotary-weaver video... [Re: Timbo] #195005
10/30/09 12:44 PM
10/30/09 12:44 PM
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Smiths_Cat Offline
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Depends on....

Density of glas fibre (s-type) is about 2.5 kg/m3
Carbon is about 1.8 kg/m3
In hand made laminats you have about 30% to 40% fibres the rest is resin. Hence you save a couple of kg.
The boat would be more stiff and has more strength.
Designing the the boat to same strength (whatever that is) would lead to about 20% to 0% of weight saving (in the hulls without fittings)
Basically evertime where your structure is driven by pure strength you save weight, when your structure is driven by minimum skin thickness or local damage tolereance etc. weight saving goes to zero.
If the part is strength-driven, you would reduce skin thickness, but less thick skins are more prone to penetration and buckling, etc. so you can't use the full benefit.

Yes, marketing people will tell us about big benefits, but check reality
* B787 is over weight and not up to strength
* Mitsubishi announces to make the wing of their futur regional jet out of aluminium, because it is lighter!

By the way, the strength (not stiffness) of a beach cat hull would be improved by factor 1.5 ... 2 with epoxy resin, instead of polyester.
Another efficient way of weight saving would be efficient structural design and quality control during manufacturing, both are less expensive than CFRP. ... but CFRP looks more pimped.

Cheers,

Klaus

Re: Carbon Fiber rotary-weaver video... [Re: Smiths_Cat] #195009
10/30/09 01:12 PM
10/30/09 01:12 PM
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Rolf_Nilsen Offline
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Hmm, alu wings. When will we see new planes with wood structural components? grin
Wood is not a bad material either. A wood/carbon laminate can be really, really, good in boats.

Epoxy is good, but there is also a whole host of vinylesters with different properties.

Re: Carbon Fiber rotary-weaver video... [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #195011
10/30/09 01:19 PM
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mbounds Offline
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Wood is the orignial Fiber (cellulose) Reinforced Plastic (lignin).

Re: Carbon Fiber rotary-weaver video... [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #195012
10/30/09 01:31 PM
10/30/09 01:31 PM
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Timbo Offline
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[quote=Rolf_Nilsen]Hmm, alu wings. When will we see new planes with wood structural components? grin
Wood is not a bad material either. A wood/carbon laminate can be really, really, good in boats.


Rolf, I know you were joking but in fact there are quite a few hombuilt racing and aerobatic planes with wings made of wood as it is lighter, stiffer and easier to work with than just about anything else.


Blade F16
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Re: Carbon Fiber rotary-weaver video... [Re: Timbo] #195013
10/30/09 01:34 PM
10/30/09 01:34 PM
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Timbo Offline
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What I was really wondering about was, if you were going to -home build- a trimaran, how much weight would you really save by using carbon cloth instead of the cheaper glass cloth? And how much more money would the carbon cloth cost?

Thanks Klaus, that's about what I thought.


Blade F16
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Re: Carbon Fiber rotary-weaver video... [Re: Timbo] #195014
10/30/09 01:56 PM
10/30/09 01:56 PM
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Rolf_Nilsen Offline
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It was only a half joke wink

A norwegian builder of a F-22 estimates that using carbon instead of S glass in the hulls earns him 75kgs on the whole project.

Re: Carbon Fiber rotary-weaver video... [Re: Timbo] #195016
10/30/09 02:07 PM
10/30/09 02:07 PM
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My f32 floats weigh 100kg [ hand layup glass/epoxy]
One builder did his in carbon/epoxy vacuum bagged and they weighed 90kg
Not worth the effort/expense I reckon


Paul

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Re: Carbon Fiber rotary-weaver video... [Re: TEAMVMG] #195021
10/30/09 02:32 PM
10/30/09 02:32 PM
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Timbo Offline
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Thanks guys, and what about the Epoxy vs. Polyester? I know epoxy is expensive, but from what I have been told, it's worth it when it comes to keeping water out and holding power. I've also heard it will crack, where polyester will give a litte bit and not crack as much.


Blade F16
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Re: Carbon Fiber rotary-weaver video... [Re: Timbo] #195024
10/30/09 03:13 PM
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Timbo, reading that again, you wouldn't save any weight if you use the same lay-up.
The idea with carbon is that, for instance, if you were going to use a 600g/m2 glass cloth, you could replace it with a 400g cloth [or even 300g].
In addition to saving 2-300g/m2 in cloth, you would save the same again in resin.
Sounds good until you see just how thin a 300g skin is - not very practical on anything other than an A-class


Paul

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Re: Carbon Fiber rotary-weaver video... [Re: TEAMVMG] #195025
10/30/09 03:32 PM
10/30/09 03:32 PM
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Rolf_Nilsen Offline
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We have a 160gsm glass layer on our strip plank hull panels. Since the core is 4mm spruce we figure we will get away with it (knock on wood). Definately heavier than carbon/foam, but more dent resistant and possibly better cyclic load properties (must seek excuses where one can find them).

Next project will not be strip plank though!

Re: Carbon Fiber rotary-weaver video... [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #195040
10/31/09 04:20 AM
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Epoxy vs. Polyester:
I dodn't rember the exact numbers, but epoxy has about twice the breaking elongation. This is a good indicator for thoughness (e.g. dragging the boat over pebbles) and the likelihood of small cracks. Also the braking elongation is lower than that of glass fibres, hence the plastics fails first and the strength of the fibres isn't used completly.
Carbon and aramid will only stick to epoxy, but not to polyester. Epoxy takes less water than polyester.
At all the mechanical properties of epoxy are much better.

Epoxy is more difficult to handle. You have to keep exact mixture ratios and you have to work above 10 to 5°C.

Epoxy stinks less and the styrol solvent of polyester is more dangerous to your health.

Epoxy is twice or so expensive than polyester.

Vinylester is between epoxy and polyester, in properties and price.

Wood vs. glass or carbon:
indicators for lightweight materials are
ratio between strength to density for parts which are tensiones (e.g. stays)
squareroot of stiffness to density for parts which are prone to buckling (e.g. mast)
stiffness^0.33 to density for skins which are prone to local buckling (e.g skin of the hulls)

In the attached list you will find a comparison for simple parts (e.g. skins without stringers and frames).
The higher the number the better suited the matrial, if you are unconstrained in geometric dimensions.

The translation is
Holz - wood
Mg-Leg. - mangnesium alloy
Al-leg. - aluminium alloy
Ti-Leg. - Titanium
Stahl - steel
GFK - glass fibre reinforced plastic (GFRP)
CFK - CFRP
AFK - aramid FRP

Another important factor for the hulls is the resitance against penetration and local load introduction, which is not in this list.
According to this list, the only part which should be of CFRP should be the mast, the hulls would be of wood. You would need to improve penetration resistance with a layer of glass in- and outside.

Cheers,

Klaus

Attached Files
material.JPG (179 downloads)
Re: Carbon Fiber rotary-weaver video... [Re: Tony_F18] #195083
11/01/09 04:48 AM
11/01/09 04:48 AM
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bvining Offline
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Back to the original question.

Quote
I had'nt seen this before but this is used by Lexus for one of their new sportscars.
Apparently there only two of these weavers in the world but it looks very complex and impressive.
Could this technique also be used to make boat parts?
Looks great for making long parts like masts etc.


Forte in CT makes masts, poles, etc for the marine industry out of carbon using this exact technique. www.forterts.com

http://www.forterts.com/tec_process.html

Bill


Re: Carbon Fiber rotary-weaver video... [Re: bvining] #195120
11/02/09 12:14 AM
11/02/09 12:14 AM
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ncik Offline
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a slightly simpler but similar process called filament winding is commonly used for carbon tubes, including masts.

from some of the comments on that thing it sounds like they are just winding around an aluminium former.

Re: Carbon Fiber rotary-weaver video... [Re: Timbo] #196116
11/12/09 11:16 PM
11/12/09 11:16 PM
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Here is what I've learned building the TMS-20

I have not figured out the difference between E-Glass and Carbon Fiber in weight. Once I purchased the Carbon Mast I was amazed on how little it weighed. I had already bought a roll of E-Glass to build the TMS-20 but decided to have my Naval Architect re-design the plans for Carbon Fiber. One thing people will do is change to carbon but still build the laminate to E-Glass lay-up it will be much stronger but over built. That is why I consulted with the NA for a new lay-up schedule for carbon some places I have 6 layers in stress points but overall it is a basic lay-up as follows. The basic lay-up over all is just two skins of 200-gram carbon cloth on each side of the foam and I'm using West System Epoxy. The outside will have one layer of 4 oz E-glass as a protective covering. I'm also vacuum bagging it so I'm pulling the extra resin out. If I were using E-glass the lay-up would be much, much thicker and not as stiff plus more resin to wet it out.

I shopped the carbon cloth and picked it up for $18 / yard and I get 25% off of the retail price on the West System Products and 50% off of the foam. Does it cost more - yes but you use less. I like working in Epoxy 100 times better then poly - less smell - less toxic - easier to meter with the pumps - easier to adjust - stronger - and powders to thicken it for your specifications. It is kind of like everything else with boats you just get what you pay for. Also carbon fiber is not a mystery it is stronger, light, and you use less material compared to E glass.

Overall weight is factor to speed. You can purchase the skinniest lines, air blocks, foam battens, and use “little people” for crew but you’ll save more in the weight of the construction of the craft. But the cost are there and more labor so people will discard the benefits as it cuts into the profit. Also you have to paint epoxy and not gel coat it so production is more difficult even with production from a female mold.


Mike Shappell
www.themanshed.com
TMS-20 Builder
G-Cat 5.7 - Current Boat
NACRA 5.2 - early 70's

Re: Carbon Fiber rotary-weaver video... [Re: Timbo] #196117
11/12/09 11:48 PM
11/12/09 11:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Timbo
Thanks guys, and what about the Epoxy vs. Polyester? I know epoxy is expensive, but from what I have been told, it's worth it when it comes to keeping water out and holding power. I've also heard it will crack, where polyester will give a litte bit and not crack as much.


After the cure Epoxy is stronger and has a bit more flex then poly resins when applied properly if it cracked there was a reason other then the Epoxy.

But as human nature has it if you say it with authority, point, and nod your head - others will do the same.

Must be the Epoxy! Not


Mike Shappell
www.themanshed.com
TMS-20 Builder
G-Cat 5.7 - Current Boat
NACRA 5.2 - early 70's


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