| |  Re: Waves without Rick
[Re: ]
#196545
11/17/09 02:35 AM 11/17/09 02:35 AM |
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 493
Minnesota Jeff Peterson 
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Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 493
Minnesota | Topics like this remind me why I've never been interested in racing my boat.
It's hard to get your nose out-of-joint, as a recreational sailor. My personal whining about the woes of sailing involve: power boats, float planes, personal water craft, blown off hats, and beers lost to Davy Jones Locker.-That's plenty for me. I'll leave the competitive "tempests in a teapot", to others.
Jeff Peterson
H-16 Sail #23721
Big Marine Lake, MN
| | | Re: Waves without Rick
[Re: Jeff Peterson]
#196590
11/17/09 10:41 AM 11/17/09 10:41 AM |
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 3,355
Key Largo, FL and Put-in-Bay, ... RickWhite
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 3,355
Key Largo, FL and Put-in-Bay, ... | Actually, you are missing a world of fun. There is not a better sport in the world, in my opinion.
I once played college football, raced motocross and hare scrambles.., but can't do those anymore. Yet, at 72 years old, I just missed winning the Wave North Americans. Only sport I know where you can be competitive as long as someone can load you on the boat and stick a tiller in your hand.
And, how about knowledge? You have to have a grasp of aerodynamics, aquadynamics, have to be physically able to trim sails to optimum speed, know angles of attack, know the rules of the road, understand all about weather (i.e., sea breezes effects, frontal winds, puffs, shore effects, etc.) and then put them all together in a game of chess on the water.
Sorry, but reaching back and forth dodging PWC is not my cup of tea.
Racing sailboats IS where it is at. What you are seeing in these Forums are folks that are simply wanting to do it the way that is the most fun for them. It takes organization to have regattas. It DOES NOT take organization to reach around a lake.
So, that organization part is what you are witnessing here. There is NO ONE hostile here. We are all working toward a common goal -- having fun and fair racing.
Rick | | | Re: Waves without Rick
[Re: RickWhite]
#196609
11/17/09 12:59 PM 11/17/09 12:59 PM |
xanderwess
Unregistered
| xanderwess
Unregistered
| Organized Racing is the reason you travel with your kids 2000 miles away to exotic locations (relatively speaking). Without Racing, my family would never have had any reason to go to: Upstate New York (twice), Oklahoma City , Panama City, Biloxi, Ventura CA, LHC, Big Marine Lake, Long Beach, Yankton SD and Pensacola. All this while the 2 older ones were in High School. Before we raced, we stayed on Clear Lake. zzzzzzzz.
Rick's right about the perceived bickering, it is just the organizational aspects of any group. We just do it on the net because of geography limitations. | | | Re: Waves without Rick
[Re: mmadge]
#196625
11/17/09 02:44 PM 11/17/09 02:44 PM |
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,969 brucat
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,969
| We've also been to lots of places we wouldn't have otherwise gone. Unfortunately, we never seem to give ourselves enough time to be tourists, we just show up, race and go home (our loss).
Since we're talking about opinions regarding organizational behavior, here are a few of mine...
It's unfortunate that the IWCA racers chose to stay home from the Mega. I think it would have sent a FAR better message if they went to AZ anyway.
Without rehashing the old stuff, there were serious efforts made to allow the IWCA rules, but there were unforeseen complications, and a decision was made as time was perceived to be running out. That doesn't change the fact that we (the HCA officers and Board) really wanted everyone there, and want this to work in the future.
To me, staying home just says, "If I can't have it my way all the time, I'm not playing." That is very a pre-adolescent attitude, and is very hurtful in the long run. You'd get a lot more respect if you showed up and demonstrated through your actions that you're serious about making it work in the future. To me, that's not "giving in," it's making an effort to help the thing evolve.
I see the same sort of issue in respect to ISAF and coming up with all sorts of cute names for events because "Worlds" is forbidden. It would be far more productive to work to meet the ISAF requirements to eventually be able to have a "Worlds" than to "throw it in their face" and have work-arounds. The very problem of multiple NA events for the same class is why ISAF is so serious about Worlds.
Having said all of that, Rick's last post does show that we may be headed in the right direction, let's see how 2010 shakes out. But, unless the planning and discussion starts now, I wouldn't be expecting a different outcome.
Mike | | | Re: Waves without Rick
[Re: brucat]
#196626
11/17/09 02:55 PM 11/17/09 02:55 PM |
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 3,224
Roanoke Island ,N.C. Team_Cat_Fever
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Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 3,224
Roanoke Island ,N.C. | We've also been to lots of places we wouldn't have otherwise gone. Unfortunately, we never seem to give ourselves enough time to be tourists, we just show up, race and go home (our loss).
Since we're talking about opinions regarding organizational behavior, here are a few of mine...
It's unfortunate that the IWCA racers chose to stay home from the Mega. I think it would have sent a FAR better message if they went to AZ anyway.
Without rehashing the old stuff, there were serious efforts made to allow the IWCA rules, but there were unforeseen complications, and a decision was made as time was perceived to be running out. That doesn't change the fact that we (the HCA officers and Board) really wanted everyone there, and want this to work in the future.
To me, staying home just says, "If I can't have it my way all the time, I'm not playing." That is very a pre-adolescent attitude, and is very hurtful in the long run. You'd get a lot more respect if you showed up and demonstrated through your actions that you're serious about making it work in the future. To me, that's not "giving in," it's making an effort to help the thing evolve.
I see the same sort of issue in respect to ISAF and coming up with all sorts of cute names for events because "Worlds" is forbidden. It would be far more productive to work to meet the ISAF requirements to eventually be able to have a "Worlds" than to "throw it in their face" and have work-arounds. The very problem of multiple NA events for the same class is why ISAF is so serious about Worlds.
Having said all of that, Rick's last post does show that we may be headed in the right direction, let's see how 2010 shakes out. But, unless the planning and discussion starts now, I wouldn't be expecting a different outcome.
Mike I don't have a cat in this fight, but did y'all have enough class legal charter waves to supply the IWCA folks if they had showed, or were they supposed to buy class legal kit and refit their boats to go to one race? By the way I think the whole SMOD mindset is just a money grab.I deal with it in the N-20 class. Hopefully, this can all be worked out to the racer's advantage.
"I said, now, I said ,pay attention boy!"
The cure for anything is salt water - sweat, tears, or the sea
Isak Dinesen
If a man is to be obsessed by something.... I suppose a boat is as good as anything... perhaps a bit better than most.
E. B. White
| | | Re: Waves without Rick
[Re: brucat]
#196633
11/17/09 03:07 PM 11/17/09 03:07 PM |
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD Mark Schneider
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD | To me, staying home just says, "If I can't have it my way all the time, I'm not playing." That is very a pre-adolescent attitude, and is very hurtful in the long run. You'd get a lot more respect if you showed up and demonstrated through your actions that you're serious about making it work in the future. To me, that's not "giving in," it's making an effort to help the thing evolve. Glad to hear you want things to evolve... especially if the outside the class IWCA group would just change... and conform to our way of doing things. How about addressing an issue that actual HCA class members want changed before addressing the very small number of HCA Wave racers concerns. How about a report on this motion at the NAHCA meeting that actually comes from class members who WANT to invite the F18's. Implementation of F18 Fleets in HCA regattas
To make an F18 fleet beneficial to the HCA there needs to be rules to follow. We do not want the HCA to become an open catamaran organization, but we still need to be progressive.
1. The fleet hosting the regatta must have Tigers or Wildcats in it.
2. F18 sailors must pay an insurance premium ($15 to be paid to the HCA) at each regatta to allow F18 sailors to be covered by the HCA’s insurance policy. No weekend memberships. Or have a non-voting membership category for those members that do not own Hobies. Tiger and Wildcat owners should join the HCA. If most do not join then the HCA does not need to have F18’s at its regattas. Non-Hobie owners should not be voting members of the HCA.
3. Tiger’s could also be scored for Tiger points.
4. 2 year trial period. Review policy at that time.
My understanding is that it was tabled. It's basically the same issue as the Waves. Formula Waves versus HCA Waves. Formula 18's versus HCA Hobie Tigers.
Last edited by Mark Schneider; 11/17/09 03:25 PM.
crac.sailregattas.com
| | | Re: Waves without Rick
[Re: Mark Schneider]
#196637
11/17/09 03:33 PM 11/17/09 03:33 PM |
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,969 brucat
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Posts: 3,969
| I wasn't involved in the charter arrangements. I was involved with the HCA discussions that ultimately led to the APPROVAL of use if IWCA rules. It got muddy after that for several valid reasons that didn't get resolved in the time period allowed, but we (HCA) were headed in the right (big picture) direction. There was a decent number of charters available, and I'm confident that if demand were overwhelming early enough in the planning stage, arrangements could have been made for more. HCC is in the business of building and selling boats, and the Wave is their number one seller.
Mark, there's no good way to say this: you have your head completely up your a@@ on the Wave issue. HCA approved the use of IWCA rules for HavaMega, and were prepared to consider incorporating them into points regattas if HavaMega had a huge IWCA turnout.
As for the F18 issue, this is still a hot topic. The HCA AGM is only 2 hours long, and lots of business has to be conducted.
One note of caution: Just because there are a (potentially large) number of people that are vocally in favor, does not meant they are the majority, or that the Division Chairs, who actually do the voting, will decide to go in this direction.
Having said that, the F18 issue was tabled not because the class leadership is against it, but for the complete opposite reason: to be as fair as possible to all sides and to give the issue its own meeting for discussion and ultimately for a vote. You owe Chris (and the entire group) an apology.
How about, join the class, show up at a meeting (or call in), and you'd have a better understanding of what's actually going on.
Mike | | | Re: Waves without Rick
[Re: brucat]
#196639
11/17/09 04:24 PM 11/17/09 04:24 PM |
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD Mark Schneider
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Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD | How about, join the class, show up at a meeting (or call in), and you'd have a better understanding of what's actually going on.
You know... I think I did join the HCA class.... at Nigel's Spring Fever Regatta years ago and then I was not allowed to join the following year.... something about not owning a Hobie.... Just because there are a (potentially large) number of people that are vocally in favor, does not meant they are the majority, or that the Division Chairs, who actually do the voting, will decide to go in this direction. I also have a problem with joining a class where my vote is irrelevant. I have this thing about a democratic process. Look... you can quietly dither about the formula issue (F18's and Waves) for HCA regattas forever.... I called you out because out of the blue you bashed the IWCA guys and call them "pre adolescent".... I think they were happily doing their thing...thought they would take the HCA offer and partner with NAHCA and keep doing their thing... and then SOMEBODY had issues so they are back to doing their own thing without the HCA "organization". The F18's are doing their own thing as well.... a motion was made by an HCA division to include the F18's and .... surprise... SOMEBODY had issues so it was tabled. Now,... if you can't resolve the formal F18 request at your annual meeting... Why in god's name are you asking the IWCA waves to work something out for 2010? They have seen this movie before... they know the ending. I just asked for a report because it was tabled and applicable to the WAVE issue you brought up.. The only important organizational questions are" Will catamaran racing be stronger in 2010 if Yacht Clubs, or Hobie Fleet XX, aka Organizing Authorities run Points events for IWCA waves, and Formula 18's? Will Hobie Racing be stronger if YC's give starts to Hobie 18's and some other catamaran class or dinghies and have Hobie HCA tally their points?
crac.sailregattas.com
| | | Re: Waves without Rick
[Re: Mark Schneider]
#196641
11/17/09 04:38 PM 11/17/09 04:38 PM |
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,969 brucat
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,969
| Mark, you hit a raw nerve with the typical blind comments that are made following HCA meetings. Happens year after year, always by people who weren't there, and usually aren't members.
You don't have to own a Hobie to be a member. You shouldn't vote on Hobie issues if your primary intent is to promote Brand X sailing, but that is a different matter.
What I said wasn't out of the blue. Actions and words have not been aligning, and that needs to happen to move forward (again, just my opinion). The case can be made that this is true for all sides, but I was speaking solely for the HCA, because it was approved by HCA (after a lot of discussion).
I do agree with the importance of your two last questions, although what you might believe are the correct answers may not be agreed by the class.
In any organization, ultimately votes are held and decisions are made. If one is not willing to go with the group decisions, maybe one just is not meant to be in any organization. If one's personal opinion doesn't carry the vote, one can go away, but will that really make one any happier, or the class any stronger?
You still owe Chris an apology. He is the one who (wisely) moved to table the F18 discussion so it could be given plenty of time for discussion. No one at HCA is interested in tabling it without a discussion and vote.
Mike | | | Re: Waves without Rick
[Re: brucat]
#196652
11/17/09 05:53 PM 11/17/09 05:53 PM |
xanderwess
Unregistered
| xanderwess
Unregistered
| Mark
What Mike L says is true and it was tabled to give it the serious attention it deserves. We could have lost control of the meeting very quickly and as soon as I smelled a riot, I stopped it. We've got a confernce call between interested parties coming up soon and I am sure someone will trascribe the entire thing and post it here for you to tear apart, I mean read.
Waves: Last time. We had boats, good intentions, and hopes to let the little boats all sail (HCA/IWCA). It got **** and all I can say is that I am sorry. Not my plan but it is what it is. I learned a little from HavaMega and plan to use what I learned going forward. No real bad guy here, just a set of circumstances. And if you can honestly say the F18 issue and the Wave situation are the same than I don't have a response to that. The Wave is the answer to dwindling regatta numbers and getting kids on multihulls and keeping our older guys sailing. The F18 is for the expert only, big money cat sailors. They should put the 4 hour erection warning on the side of the boat. Not the same issues, not even close. | | | Re: Waves without Rick
[Re: ]
#196659
11/17/09 06:50 PM 11/17/09 06:50 PM |
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 162
Dunedin Causeway, FL hobiephil
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member
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 162
Dunedin Causeway, FL | The Wave is the answer to dwindling regatta numbers and getting kids on multihulls and keeping our older guys sailing. The F18 is for the expert only, big money cat sailors. They should put the 4 hour erection warning on the side of the boat. Wow, never said better. | | | Re: Waves without Rick
[Re: hobiephil]
#196700
11/18/09 08:08 AM 11/18/09 08:08 AM |
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,152
tampa, fl ksurfer2
old hand
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old hand
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,152
tampa, fl | The Wave is the answer to dwindling regatta numbers and getting kids on multihulls and keeping our older guys sailing. The F18 is for the expert only, big money cat sailors. They should put the 4 hour erection warning on the side of the boat. Wow, never said better. Really????? I was thinking the exact opposite. Someday people will figure out how to promote their own class without putting down others. I sail an F-18 and am not an expert nor do I have big money. I must have missed a memo that told me I should not be sailing in that class.
If your havin girl problems i feel bad for you son
I got 99 problems but my beautiful wife ain't one
| | | Re: Waves without Rick
[Re: ksurfer2]
#196713
11/18/09 08:51 AM 11/18/09 08:51 AM |
andrewscott
Unregistered
| andrewscott
Unregistered
| Are you suggesting if my mast is up for more than 4 hours i need to seek medical attention?
Last edited by andrewscott; 11/18/09 08:52 AM.
| | | Re: Waves without Rick
[Re: ksurfer2]
#196726
11/18/09 09:49 AM 11/18/09 09:49 AM |
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 921
Alachua, FL Mugrace72
old hand
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old hand
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 921
Alachua, FL | Someday people will figure out how to promote their own class without putting down others. I sail an F-18 and am not an expert nor do I have big money. I must have missed a memo that told me I should not be sailing in that class. No one put the F18s down. The F18 class is the by far the best Cat class that has come along and should have a long and viable life. It is dynamic enough to keep the cutting edge folks interested. However, F18s are not an everyday boat for the rank and file casual, kid, old fart, lazy, laid back, whatever....sailor. The interesting thing is that Waves are damn fun to race. I would never have guessed such until Rick got us to Put-In-Bay last Summer.
Jack Woehrle
Hobie Wave #100, Tiger Shark III
HCA-NA 5022-1
USSailing 654799E
Alachua FL/Put-In-Bay
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