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Re: port / starboard race rule [Re: brucat] #196182
11/13/09 02:42 PM
11/13/09 02:42 PM
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Santa Barbara CA
sbflyer Offline
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Don't starboard tackers ever break the rules?

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Re: port / starboard race rule [Re: sbflyer] #196184
11/13/09 03:07 PM
11/13/09 03:07 PM
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Short answer: Yes. A right-of-way boat may maneuver, but must give the other boat time and opportunity to avoid her.

Mike

Re: port / starboard race rule [Re: brucat] #196185
11/13/09 03:31 PM
11/13/09 03:31 PM
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But did the Starboard tack boat hail the port tack boat? In some instances the starboard tack boat would rather duck the port and hope the port doesn't tack, he might not hail, and choose instead to duck. Unless he hailed "starboard" or after the duck, hailed "Protest", if I were the port boat, I don't think I would consider him fouled at all. Maybe he didn't want to exert his rights and ducked instead so as to keep clear air? Is that considered a "Foul" by the port tack boat?

I know I have often ducked port tack boats because I wanted to continue on, alone. But if I don't want them to tack I either hail them that I will duck or try to duck early enough that they don't tack on me.


Blade F16
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Re: port / starboard race rule [Re: brucat] #196188
11/13/09 03:44 PM
11/13/09 03:44 PM
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Mark Schneider Offline
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err... yes I was hunting... smile
Its rainy cold and nasty... so this was a fish in a barrel kind of opportunity.

as to the rule.... What Mike said!





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Re: port / starboard race rule [Re: Timbo] #196191
11/13/09 04:16 PM
11/13/09 04:16 PM
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Annapolis, MD
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Timbo... what part of port tack shall keep clear of starboard do you want to argue with?

No hail of "starboard" is required.... "Wake up and pay attention" amounts to the same thing. You are not asserting your rights with some hail... and you are not declining your rights when you don't say a word.

Starboard is NOT DUCKING PORT.... She is avoiding a collision with PORT.... It's a foul by port. Port put her self in that position and took the risk.. So... pay the piper.

As windy noted... Self policing... means YOU call the foul on yourself.... you don't have to hear protest if you know you fouled him.
If there was some doubt... He can help you out by telling you... Protest.... If he says protest and you think you were clear ahead... better have a witness who has the proper angle to disprove Starboard's claim that they altered course to avoid a collision.

The rules are black and white here to make the penalty on Port large enough so that she is conservative in her time and distance judgments.

ps
In catamarans... its of dubious value to tack and try to lee bow starboard.... so you would prefer port to tack below you and get shot out the back as opposed to ducking and getting a shift or more pressure on port tack.

If they are clear ahead of you... they are winning for the moment.... If they want to tack on you and get your air..... that's what winning gets you.

Maybe's cause boats to go boom!


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Re: port / starboard race rule [Re: Mark Schneider] #196192
11/13/09 04:24 PM
11/13/09 04:24 PM
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Wow, all that rain is really making you testy!

While I agree with most of that rant, the other thing to consider is that advanced racing tactics call for the starboard boat to know whether you really want the port boat to tack, or whether you want to wave him across to get him out of your way.

Usually, this is only done when the sailors are very familiar with one another's capabilities. Hand jestures can also be confusing when it's windy.

I doubt that was the case here, but it's just another thing to think about when on the water.

Mike

Re: port / starboard race rule [Re: Mark Schneider] #196194
11/13/09 04:51 PM
11/13/09 04:51 PM
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Sebring, Florida.
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I wasn't there Mark, were you? It's a tough call until you tell me the exact situation, type of boats, wind speed, direction, etc. and he said it was a Distance Race which to me means maybe neither one of them was "close hauled" but instead trying to get to some fixed marker up the shore/river/what have you.

I really don't know why I bother...

Mark you are right, always. What was I thinking?

And Maybe's do not cause boats to go boom, Asshats who don't hail Starboard cause boats to go boom.


Blade F16
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Re: port / starboard race rule [Re: Timbo] #196203
11/13/09 06:20 PM
11/13/09 06:20 PM
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Southampton UK
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A lot of protests come down to wheter the offended party hailed protest or not. A situation can be clear as gold as who was right but if you don't hail "protest" then in the protest room your protest can mean nothing.

Re: port / starboard race rule [Re: ] #196216
11/13/09 08:38 PM
11/13/09 08:38 PM
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Originally Posted by andrewscott
...if you foul someone in a race ... can you do an on the course correction? if yes, what is required?

First of all, take a look at the preamble to the rules "Basic Principle - Sportsmanship and the Rules". It says:
Quote
... A fundamental principle of sportsmanship is that when competitors break a rule they will promptly take a penalty...

Therefore, if you believe you have fouled someone, you should take a penalty, whether they protest or not. If you aren't sure, then it's perfectly ok to see if they protest you. Check rule 61 "Protest Requirements" also. It says:
Quote
a boat intending to protest shall inform the other boat at the first reasonable opportunity. When her protest concerns an incident in the racing area that she is involved in or sees, she shall hail 'Protest' and conspicuously display a red flag at the first reasonable opportunity for each...

Now, there are some exceptions, and the sailing instructions may add additional requirements, but that is the basic notification requirement. Note that the protesting competitor has to say the word "protest". You can't say "you owe me turns", or "you broke a rule", or "you fouled me". You have to say "protest". If your boat is 6 meters or longer, then you must fly a red flag. If you don't do both of these without delay, then your protest is invalid.

Now, about exoneration, look at rule 44. Rule 44.1 says:
Quote
A boat may take a Two-Turns Penalty when she may have broken a rule of Part 2 while racing...

The sailing instructions may change the penalty, or offer an alternative penalty, but if they don't then a boat may usually exonerate herself by making two turns as described by rule 44.2:
Quote
After getting well clear of other boats as soon after the incident as possible, a boat takes a One-Turn or Two-Turns Penalty by promptly making the required number of turns in the same direction, each turn including one tack and one gybe...


I hope that helps,
Eric
US Sailing Certified Judge,
Member, Area D Appeals Committee

Re: port / starboard race rule [Re: scooby_simon] #196217
11/13/09 08:42 PM
11/13/09 08:42 PM
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Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline
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Originally Posted by scooby_simon
Originally Posted by sbflyer
Depending on your class, they can be picky about actually displaying a protest flag and a hail is not valid, if you ever see a whiffle ball hanging on a dinghy boom, it's got the flag in there!


Depends on size of boat. Less than 6m flag is not required (usually).

As for hailing protest; that is not required either. If you foul, you should do your turn(s).

It's possible you get seen fouling, but out of earshot and so you cannot hear the protest hail.


Scooby... I think the culture over here (NA) is to not protest an incident that you see but are not directly involved in.

Is this common to issue third party protests among the brits?

Does it help the game by getting people to take fewer chances and sail smarter?




Last edited by Mark Schneider; 11/13/09 08:44 PM.

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Re: port / starboard race rule [Re: sbflyer] #196219
11/13/09 08:52 PM
11/13/09 08:52 PM
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Originally Posted by sbflyer
Don't starboard tackers ever break the rules?

Yes. It is entirely possible that both (or all) boats involved may break a rule. I prefer not to think of the rules in terms of "rights", but in terms of "obligations". In a typical starboard/port crossing, the port boat (P) is obligated to keep clear (rule 10), If the starboard boat (S) changes course, she is obligated to give P room to keep clear (rule 16.1). S is also obligated not to "hunt" P (rule 16.2). Both boats are obligated to avoid contact if reasonably possible (rule 14).

If, for example, P does not keep clear of S, and S does not avoid contact (and there's damage or injury), then both boats may wind up disqualified.

Regards,
Eric
US Sailing Certified Judge
Member, Area D Appeals Committee

Re: port / starboard race rule [Re: Timbo] #196220
11/13/09 09:06 PM
11/13/09 09:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Timbo
Maybe he didn't want to exert his rights and ducked instead so as to keep clear air? Is that considered a "Foul" by the port tack boat?

If the "right-of-way" boat changes course for strategic or tactical reasons, rather than as an "avoiding action" that does not constitute a foul.

For example, if S believes that the left side is favored (wind shift, better velocity, etc.), wants to go left, and bears away to prevent P from tacking on her lee-bow, then P does not break rule 10. If P hails "tack or cross", and S waves P across, then P is clean (even if S bears away).

I hope that helps,
Eric

Re: port / starboard race rule [Re: Mark Schneider] #196222
11/13/09 09:19 PM
11/13/09 09:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Mark Schneider
<hunting>... a sexy slang term that I would argue does such harm that this term should not be uttered.

It is the most misused and misunderstood term in sailing and many think its part of the rules. A get out of jail free card because..." you were hunting me"

... Its just a mess.... on par with mast abeam.

"Hunting", like "barging", is not a term defined in the rules, but one often used to describe a particular situation. In real life, neither hunting nor barging is a "get out of jail free card" for the hunted or barged boat. There are, however, rules that prohibit both hunting (RRS 16.2) and barging (RRS 11 / Section C Preamble). I don't consider either term to be so harmful as to prohibit its use.

Regards,
Eric

Re: port / starboard race rule [Re: Mark Schneider] #196224
11/13/09 09:32 PM
11/13/09 09:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Mark Schneider
No hail of "starboard" is required.... "Wake up and pay attention" amounts to the same thing. You are not asserting your rights with some hail... and you are not declining your rights when you don't say a word.

Well, yes and no. The rules do not explicitly require the starboard tack boat to hail. If there's contact, however, S may find herself in trouble. Rule 14 requires all boats to avoid contact "if reasonably possible", and Dick Rose recently published an article in which he wrote that hails are a reasonable part of avoiding contact. If S could have avoided contact by hailing, and did not, then she breaks rule 14. So, although the rules are not explicit in this situation, a hail may be implicitly required.

Either way, when both boats know one another is aware of the situation, and understands the other's intentions, problems are far less likely to occur. Good communication on the water is almost always helpful.

Regards,
Eric

Re: port / starboard race rule [Re: Timbo] #196226
11/13/09 09:52 PM
11/13/09 09:52 PM
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Quote
and he said it was a Distance Race which to me means maybe neither one of them was "close hauled" but instead trying to get to some fixed marker up the shore/river/what have you.


I'm missing why "close hauled" is impotant hear?


Chris Allen
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Re: port / starboard race rule [Re: Isotope235] #196227
11/13/09 10:12 PM
11/13/09 10:12 PM
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Annapolis, MD
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RE Eric's acceptance of the term hunting.

No... I see people take 16.2 and say... well, I was keeping clear.... er.... I had not changed course but was going to cross clear ahead... when starboard footed off and hunted me and I was forced to foul him. He did not give me room and opportunity to stay clear.

or... I footed off to clear starboard but they also footed to hunt me... and I fouled starbord because of their actions.

They think that 16..2 means the ROW boat is restricted from sailing puffs, headers and lifts or changing gears from point mode to foot mode going into a cross...People who throw the hunting charge believe that starboard is somehow constrained to simply going straight as the cross approaches. With this interpretation of 16.2, port does not give starboard enough room.

Perry's guidance that a 16.2 violation should not be subtle.... Port needs evidence that port changed course to duck and starboard changed course and changed course again solely to get them.

So I take 16.2 as a limit on Starboard actions... Not something that Port should be thinking about in a cross. Port should either be clear ahead and crossing... or clearly ducking and keeping clear.

What am I missing?

Last edited by Mark Schneider; 11/13/09 10:44 PM.

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Re: port / starboard race rule [Re: Mark Schneider] #196228
11/13/09 10:32 PM
11/13/09 10:32 PM
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Quote
What am I missing?


where to begin? Sorry that was to easy.


Chris Allen
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Re: port / starboard race rule [Re: Isotope235] #196229
11/13/09 10:37 PM
11/13/09 10:37 PM
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Annapolis, MD
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Quote
If S could have avoided contact by hailing, and did not, then she breaks rule 14. So, although the rules are not explicit in this situation, a hail may be implicitly required.


This is a stretch.... linking a hail that is not required because you are the ROW boat ... to not taking action in avoiding a collision This is a bogus concatenation of your responsibility.... If you could avoid the collision and did not take action... you violate rule 14. period!

Injecting this yes and no interpretation is silly and contributes to the confusion that leads to.. well.... he did not hail starboard so that I thought he gave me permission to cross... (see this thread in fact)

No one will disagree with you on
Quote
Either way, when both boats know one another is aware of the situation, and understands the other's intentions, problems are far less likely to occur.


However, Communication like hails of "starboard" is frequently a class culture issue. In tornado's... they think you are a hick from the sticks if you are constantly hailing boats on every cross.... they are pros... they know the rules. They tell you to shut up.... (If you don't figure it out on your own.)

So...Yes... communication can't be wrong and No communication may not be warranted... Yes and NO guidance on things like class culture ... no problem... Yes and no answers on the rule requirements is misleading.


crac.sailregattas.com
Re: port / starboard race rule [Re: Chris9] #196230
11/13/09 10:40 PM
11/13/09 10:40 PM
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Annapolis, MD
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Originally Posted by Chris9
Quote
What am I missing?


where to begin? Sorry that was to easy.


OK... but given our internal troubles on the little bit of water we sail on.... OBVIOUSLY A LOT OF PEOPLE ARE MISSING A LOT OF RULES!....
Sigh...


crac.sailregattas.com
Re: port / starboard race rule [Re: scooby_simon] #196232
11/13/09 11:07 PM
11/13/09 11:07 PM
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Originally Posted by scooby_simon
Originally Posted by sbflyer
Depending on your class, they can be picky about actually displaying a protest flag and a hail is not valid, if you ever see a whiffle ball hanging on a dinghy boom, it's got the flag in there!


Depends on size of boat. Less than 6m flag is not required (usually).

As for hailing protest; that is not required either. If you foul, you should do your turn(s).

It's possible you get seen fouling, but out of earshot and so you cannot hear the protest hail.



Yes, be careful on that. It bit our Tybee 500 team (I was ground crew) in the *** a few years back.

Two of the boats (either accidentally or on purpose, not judging) cut inside the last buoy around the Cape. Our team filed a formal protest on the beach because they did not unwind their course to exonerate themselves and they admitted to such.
The rule in the RSS specify (61.1.a.2) a boat less than 6 meters (19'8 1/4") in length is not required to display a protest flag. The I20 is actually 20' in length so over the limit by 3.75", so our protest was thrown out on a technicality because our team didn't display a flag (don't know who could have seen it but....) It was frustrating but interesting, everyone was reading the RSS's and running around measuring hulls, a good learning experience.

I didn't realize that Ksurfer had posted the rule on page one of this thread.

Last edited by zander; 11/13/09 11:13 PM.

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