What exactly was I twisting up? Mark brought the F18s into this, I corrected him about the issue at hand (the tabling of the discussion at the meeting). There was nothing “silly” about that, it’s what happened at the meeting, period.

And, I’ll say it again, BOTH sides of the SMOD argument have merit. Just because YOU don't agree, doesn't make you right and others wrong.

Since you obviously weren't paying attention, I'll again point out that I never said anything about the F18 boat or its sailors, other than, don’t expect that the voting members of the HCA necessarily think the same way you do. Doesn’t make them better than you, or vice-versa.

All of this is just part of the overall point I was trying to make about how to move this forward, since it’s going to require an organizational change. There have been too many examples of poor organizational behavior to this point, we need something to change or this will never move forward (status quo, SMOD will remain).

You don’t have to LIKE it, but that is the reality of the situation.

"SMOD promotes mediocrity and overpriced gear." Needless to say, I disagree. I've owned three new Hobie 16s in the past 12 years, and each has had (incremental) improvements over the last. I don't know about your manufacturer, but HCC listens to its customers by actively engaging in our sport at the highest levels (support of points regattas, area champs and NAs; supplying boats for Worlds, etc.), and uses the feedback to improve its product while staying within the confines of the IHCA class rules. I don't think you can ask more from a manufacturer.

And to correct your last point, if you’re actually serious, you replace the WHOLE BOAT often, which gets you new SMOD sails, no matter what manufacturer you use. When HCC starts selling new boats without a sail, the argument for saving money MIGHT have some weight.

Mike

JJ, I don't think there is a requirement for the two sides to come together. Things have been fine with two class associations. Hobie sells boats to both. In that respect, it does parallel the Tiger/F18 - if you buy a Tiger, you get a shot at two national-level events every year. If you can get that sort of time off, that's awesome.



Your premise is that there is something broken. I don't see anything wrong with the status quo. Wave owners can join and race in both associations, and the differences are minor enough and the boat is simple enough that going back and forth between the two is likely as simple as swapping a sail. I see only winners.

JJ, sorry you feel that way. Since you have a Hobie (by the looks of your avatar), come to Madcatter and we'll happily prove you wrong.

Mike

Anyone can sail in both classes with a stock (Hobie) sail. If that makes them uncompetitive at IWCA events, SMOD advocates would say that proves the point that SMOD is the way to an even playing field.

Mike

Hi Mike -

You're correct in your first statement. Your second supposition would be correct if it were born out over the last decade of Wave racing. I've owned and raced both - stock and after-market. I would contend that, depending upon which stock sail you got, things were very even. Keep in mind that the factory never intended the Wave as a racing boat. The IWCA only opened up sails because the factory had produced so many different cuts and materials - Dacron, Mylar, monofilm, flat and full. The class adopted the factory spec and people (including me) saved a lot of money on their second sail after their original sail started showing some age.

Still, I only see winners. Mimi made a great point to me on the beach at Havasu - she said the best boat is the one that gets sailed. For her, the simplicity and fun of the Wave is keeping her on the water. She's wise beyond her years.

Mike - he was being sarcastic. It doesn't translate well into a forum post.

"The IWCA only opened up sails because the factory had produced so many different cuts and materials - Dacron, Mylar, monofilm, flat and full."

Thanks John. That's a side of the story I honestly hadn't heard before. What I kept hearing was that Hobie sails are too expensive, and fat people need specially cut sails (I'm "horizontally challenged," so let's not go there).

Mimi's a NA champ now. Can't mess with that logic!

Mike

Yep, I missed that...

Mike

How about racing all boats in one fleet and when it's over do a Portsmouth calculation as an Open race. If the replacement sails are the same area (within 5%) I think the 0.995 MN modification would apply. The new and improved boats would need to give the stock boats 18 seconds per hour handicap. If the new sails didn't offer that much improvement they weren't worth arguing about.

However, the arguement could be made that only aggressive (better?) sailors would upgrade and so faster sailors would sail faster boats, thus compounding the problem. If you include the rudders, take another 18 seconds. I bet the original race results would not change much.

When you think about it, it's just a boat! You folks are starting to sound like Little League dads. You could just step behind the dugout and settle it with your fists.

I call bullsmoke ! Anyone can join the Hobie Class Association. Boat ownership is not required

Commenting on the Hobie Policy... of we tried to do the right thing but "SOMEBODY" Really... I mean it... no bad guys here ... some well meaning person stopped us.... So give us credit for trying.... we have rules we must follow

I had let the issue drop.... UNTIL this public shot towards the sailors of the IWCA class who did not go to your regatta.



You guys deserve being called out for that shot!

I then asked what happened to the F18 proposal...because I was told it was tabled.

... Hobie18rich wrote:



Why bring F18's up?... because the process for letting the F18's race at Hobie regattas should be about the same as letting the IWCA waves race at Hobie regattas.

So without resolving this similar question...after the cluster called IWCA Waves at Havamega. .. don't you think it's a arrogant to ask the IWCA Waves to show up in 2010... especially when you don't bring up the core issue at your annual meeting?



ding ding ding. RIGHT... unless planning and discussion starts now to invite IWCA Waves to Hobie Class events ... (perhaps at the annual meeting)...

and the IWCA organization decides to put these new Hobie events on their schedule and also promises to support them.


BUT Rich said....

Hmmm... the ball seems to be in the NAHCA's court. (unless you think its a good policy to invite them and promise nobody will protest them).

Will you modify your rules and invite IWCA Waves to Hobie Regattas?...
Will you modify your rules and allow the F18's to race at Hobie regattas?

For 2010?

Will those two classes care to come out and play?

I beleive you wrote


The partnership between a class and a yacht club is critical and the Hobie class's need some flexibility.

Keep in mind about the Wave and F18 invites. ... the key word is INVITE....The invited class might be over scheduled or not interested in the event and just not show or commit to coming...

Presumably, you know that the IWCA waves and the F18's WILL agree to come to some of your Hobie regattas.... or the whole effort is a waste of time. Right now the partnership thing between the NAHCA Yacht Club monopoly and the IWCA and the F18 classes is a little weak.

(Hell John Williams is saying that the F18's Class association could care less about the Hobie F18 policy)

But... if you don't get your house in order... for ****'s sake... don't whack the IWCA Waves for not coming to the havamega or 2010 events moving forward especially after all of the upset.

Truly, Mike - the Wave wasn't made to be a one-design boat, so the principles of SMOD don't really apply.

I got to be there as the IWCA was born, so I got to see how things developed. Honestly, there was no anti-Hobie sentiment involved that I can recall. There isn't much to regulate on the boat, but another example had to do with the main blocks. The class passed a minimum stack height based on the blocks supplied with the boat - it came stock 4:1 without a ratchet and some people were adding one (including me... I know, wimpy, right?). A couple of years later, Hobie Cat switched suppliers on the main blocks and went to something less expensive and with a smaller profile. The class reacted by changing the stack-height rule... which was nice, because you could get a tiny bit more rake with the newer set-up. I see that as another example of a small owners' association embracing the changes made by a manufacturer and adapting to keep things equal on the water.

Ouch. Mark, I've said nothing of the kind. I have said that the proposed policy would be of some benefit to the F18 class, really benefit the local Hobie fleets that have asked to do it, but it would be of little benefit to the Hobie national association unless you subscribe to the idea that the national association is made up of the local fleets. I am listening with interest, but I'm an outside observer. I like that Chris is taking a measured approach that is far more democratic than the class bylaws really require. I saw him in action at the meeting in Havasu - I think he's a good chairman.

Called out??? Who the hell is hiding??? I wrote it, and I stand by it.

In case your parents or friends never let you in on the secret, and you were too thick to figure it out on your own (which, judging by your typical posts, you still haven't): When you don't get your way and run home with the ball, that's probably not going to get you invited to play tomorrow.

Maybe someday your kids can explain it to you.

Mike

Brucat,
On your quote, "Anyone can sail in both classes with a stock (Hobie) sail. If that makes them uncompetitive at IWCA events, SMOD advocates would say that proves the point that SMOD is the way to an even playing field."
I think John explained it very well, with a couple of ommissions.
As everyone knows the boat was designed for beach rentals. As things wear out, no beach rental company is going to stay with all Hobie parts, i.e., tramps, sails, blocks, sheets, etc.
And many owners have bought used boats that have had replaced parts.
So, NO, the owner in the IWCA cannot race in the HCA because of the many possible changes to after market products, not just sails.

But, there are other HCA rules that IWCA can see no reason for. One of the main ones is the minimum weight. And yet at the same time try to push the boat as a Youth Class. That is just a conflict in ideas -- many kids weigh less than that.

The IWCA has done well without minimum weight. Yes the little people did go a lot faster downwind. And then the big people figured out a technique to get their weight extremely far forward and now the little people are only a little bit faster downwind.
Hmm! Then the little people wanted a hiking stick to get further forward. ETC. If the hiking stick were OKed, then we would have to have a minimum weight.

As you can see by this example, we are very much keeping the playing field so damned level it is sickening. At the North Americans last week we had 17 races.
Check this out: Really close races. Look at the bullets. Six different boats took a first place finish, with Woehrle(little guy) taking 5, I (big, fat guy) had 4, Stan Woodruff (old and senile middle sized guy) had 4, Scarpelli (Big Hockey Player) had 2, Sharon Woodruff (tiny little lady) had one, and Wright ( small to medium guy) had one.

I think the IWCA has it wired.
Rick

I would like to know what the heck the ulterior motive of people posting in a topic about a boat that they don't sail is. What's the reason? Have you ever raced a Wave in either class?

And can someone explain why the heck I would want to join a class association of a boat that I don't own. I am not going to go join the Moore 24 class and try to screw with their class rules. It seems like a giant waste of time and energy. Why shouldn't I just act as a POSITIVE force in a class that I sail in or care about, instead of being a dividing, negative force that hurts sailing as a whole?

I believe the motive should be clear, and as I said before in the other Wave thread, it's to cause trouble and should simply be ignored.

I agree with Jdub, the 2 classes can coexist, and I think it's best for all involved (at least right now) if our motivation is simply to get more boats on the water...sometimes I think that message gets shrouded in name calling and misinterpretation of forum posts.

If you're serious, Schneider, about joining the Hobie class, please accept this olive branch. Chris, put his membership on the Surf City account. I'll pay for it with the stipulation that he not act so divisively on the forums.

I wish the negativity in this thread would stop, it's not good for sailing.

J

That is pretty amazing, Rick.

That is what I thought, too.
Forgot to mention, all were Masters except Scarpelli, and he is getting close.
In fact the Masters had been set at 55, but most of the fleet is that old, so at the National Meeting last December we set the age at 60 for 2009, and are trying to get it to 65 for 2010.
Just too many old farts in this class. Yeah! Tawd, you will be ripe for this pretty soon. Ha Ha
Rick

Why can't Hobie just have a seperate iwave class at the regattas?
I personally love the idea that one can get a boat that is built by a reknown manufacturer, alter it to suit themselves, and still race and compete.
After watching American Chopper, I thought the US led the way for "custom" anything. Seems you do unless you purchased a wave.
C'mon Hobie, encourage this, you'll sell more boats and get the younger sailors back into multi's.
It makes no difference to me what you do, being an Aussie Nacra sailor, but to see all of Ricks hard work frowned upon by the "purist" manufacturer is very dissappointing, I bet since Rick has been making the conversion kits for the wave, Hobie has sold more waves.
I even considered buying one in Australia.
Anyway, I hope you can all find a solution, I'm rooting for you Rick,good on you mate.
Chocko

Point of interest: I have been in discussion regarding the Wave youth class and setting up a different min. weight for the youth as well as some potential tweaks to the platform.
I can not argue with Rick White's logic. The fact that a little guy, a not skinny guy and whatever else all ran close and made the event more fun by subtle changes in the sail or rudders is undeniable in this case. Undeniable. Wish there was somthing I could do about, but I can't. I spent more time hiding from people at HavaMega trying to give me their opinion about the Wave, F18, where to have events, how much $$ they should be given, insurance, computer fees, membership online sites, all I wanted to know is where the ****ing keg was (thanks Jeremy!! I still got the Surf City Glass!!)
F18 issue (from our perspective) will be discussed by the board on Tuesday night on a conference call I will be moderating. I am SURE you'll all hear about it by Wed. morning so stay tuned!
JW- you make me blush......

I feel ripe now! This year was rough on me.