So I was about to replace one of the main luff batten pocket protectors on my laminate mainsail for my 17, when I unrolled it, and saw that between the time I pulled it down off my mast on sunday, and tonight, the thing has completely delaminated. Went from a small pocket of delam at the top and at the foot, to completely toast. I couldn't believe it. I don't know what I'm going to do.. honestly I feel like I'm dumping more money into this boat than its worth.... glad I have the Pryde sail still around (albeit a slower, heavier sail).

Any 17 Sailors out there want to get together for a class-action lawsuit?

how old is the sail?

#1349.

I just find it funny that it delaminated in two days in an airconditioned apartment.

With a number that low it is probably 1987, or 1988. They do not last forever.
Caleb Tarleton H-17, 1194,4245, and 6185

When the boat and sails were sold to my father, he was told that it was "brand new"

How old is your father?

Jonathan

When did he buy the H-17? Did he buy a new boat from a Hobie Dealer? Check the hull number for the year. Hobie typically will use the next number in production of sails in that class for the sail number.

What style, color is the sail? That is the other clue to pin down the actual date.

Caleb

Back in 1985/86 the 17 sail was designed with the Mylar Dacron laminate cloth. The sails were top of the line when designed back in 1985. The cloth is from the most respected supplier in the World, Tejin. As I recall, this was the top choice for cloth of it's kind for many manufacturers at the time. Due to the "One Design" class structure, we are unable to change the design or materials without Hobie Class approvals and honestly, I think the material is not the issue here. Skip Elliot has no knowledge as to the history or class issues, but does realize that this "is not a defect".

First, if the sails are new or within one year old, sailors should be talking to their dealer for warranty consideration. I suspect that this is not the case and that the sails are older. There is no claim history on this issue, so I know that this has not been an ongoing problem or we would have been hearing about it.

Second, Mylar laminate, of any type, has the de-laminate possibility. Mylar by itself is low stretch but has no strength for abrasion and cutting issues. It explodes. That is why it is laminated to another material. You gain strength and color with the lamination to Dacron. This was not a "it is what they were willing to get"... it was and is the best cloth of its type available. It is a well-known fact that there are choices, Dacron is the longest lasting and Mylar is the least stretch. Dacron stretches and looses its shape. Mylar fails over time by cracking or tearing. Mylar is used for the performance issues. That's the choice. It's just that Hobie sailors think that everything should last forever, just like the old Hobie 16's... Don't forget, they have old baggy sails.

One other issue here is related to the post by a guy with a sail that de-laminated over a week in storage. I would hazard a guess that the delaminating was already in progress. I would also guess that there was a problem in that the sails were wet and stored in heat. The moisture in the Dacron expands in heat and could have caused a sudden visible difference in the delaminating progress.

As for the part that mentions a Class action lawsuit? I love that. I guess this is what we have come to in the USA. Pretty sad thinking. Once again, this is a Hobie Class Association issue. If there is a "Class Action" anything here, it is the 17 sailors getting together and deciding that the class needs to take some action and change the rule for a more modern cloth.

Certainly we want to hear about any sails that are relatively new and having a problem like this.

I have to agree with Matt's assessment 100%. I'm affilliated with Sabre Sails in Fort Walton Beach, FL and any type of sail won't last forever. Didn't we see you recently with a picture of the boat upside down in the water? That kind of action with a laminate sail will quickly shorten it's life span. Take care of your equipment; boat stands for "break out another thousand".

Bob Curry

Oh my, several things here.

First, the comment about the lawsuit, as I thought was apparent, was made in jest. If you took it seriously, well then I'm sorry you lack the humor side of human nature.

I've capsized my boat once. That was in november.

The sail delaminated completely after a very gusty day on the lake. I don't know whether the added stress had anything to do with it, but the sail was dry and laminated (except for the two areas, the top and foot) when I rolled it up and put it in its bag. It spent 30 minutes in a hot car on the ride home, then it returned to the corner of my bedroom where its nice and comfy at 74F.

Now I'm not trying to get a new sail for free here, I was just wondering how in fact, a sail that was perfectly fine, in almost like new condition, could go from good to piss poor in the matter of two days. My older Pryde sail, is still perfectly fine. I've heard about delam issues with the 17 sails before, and I just wanted to get a straight up answer from hobie about why it happens.

Thank you for the response nmiller.

http://www.ncsailing.org/albums/masonsp03/Tad.sized.jpg

Theres the boat and the sail in question.

In response to the Hobie Cat representative.

I agree it is a fact that sails deteriorate, and delamination will occur. I agree that the people of the great ol' USA have gone sue happy, and want to make an easy buck, or get something for free. I know you guys are inundated with crap like that all the time, and I would'nt really want to be a Hobie Cat lawyer, But:
The reason people dislike dealers and manufacturers so much is because of "attitudes" like yours. You could have made your point and left out the statement about the lawsuit, which I personally thought was offensive to one of YOUR customers. Maybe I am wrong, but if you dismiss all requests for answers regarding the problems of your products with responses like that, you soon will not have customers to be-little.

David Mosley
www.seacats.org

Really, the lawsuit thing was a joke. Everyone just needs to drop it. Guess its one of those things you just can't be facetious about anymore.

sure it is a joke. i know it was a joke. you have a great sense of humor. dry. like mine. but ... this is why my cup of mc
donalds coffee says caution hot on it. damn it, it should be hot. i would complain if it was not. people just want to sue.
gimme gimme gimme sue sue sue.
i know it was a joke.

Sorry guys... I must have missed the smiley face.

Certainly didn't dismiss anything in my response. The information was as clear and complete as possible. The reference to his "Class Action" bit was a segway for the Hobie Class rules part of the response... Class Action... But I do get really tired of the lawsuit talk and that is a general statement about our country's attitude.

I can relate to both sides here. On the one hand someone has a sail that seems fine one day, and a few days later it is crap! This is a dicouraging experience to say the least! On the other hand Matt's explanation seems totally plausible to me, and I trust him from my past contacts with him. He has been a wonderful representative for Hobie on technical questions! Sadly, I think our society, and culture are degenereting into one where law suits are promoted all the time. We all suffer the results. Just look at the Comptip! I also have been very discouraged with my Hobie Dealers, and have heard a number of local sailors saying they had made the jump to Performance, and Inter Cats, because of the great service provided by Rick Bliss. It is a tough world, and not getting easier for most in the sailing business. I understand Hobie's choices, and the pessures on their dealers, but if I ever get another cat, sadly, I doubt it will be a Hobie. I recommend a new square top, by Calvert, or one of the other fine independent sailmakers to replace that old stock sail. Brian

After re-reading my post, I beleive I was too hard on you. You know, Hobie is a great company, and has always supported our regattas and fleet, and since I have never owned a Hobie, I can't say that they as a manufacturer are not 100% behind thier customers.
My comment was made about the general ill will towards all manufacturers, be it cars or boats that have earned a bad reputation with customers.

My apologies for the flaming,

David Mosley
www.seacats.org

I'm currently shopping around for a square top by a small loft. I've also got a hookup at north sails who I might be able to con into making a smaller 3DL sail if I can fork over a hefty sum of cashola.

Again, I'm sorry about the lawsuit part. I have no intention in trying to screw over the company that pioneered the sport that I love.

In response to Matt Miller - I would only disagree with the statement that the sails were top of the line for their time. I knew in 1984 (and I had been out of sailing for a couple of years because of graduate school) that type of laminate had problems. The single sided laminate is a trade between life, low stretch, weight, and cost. It is a winner in everything except life. I don't know of any other boat except maybe the H16 that uses that cloth now. With one design, mistakes haunt you for a long time.

The Hobie 18 Magnum (w/ spin) also uses that material.

MauganH17,

That particular color schemed sail is pretty old. I recall seeing a couple of others with that color scheme at my local lake falling apart also. Sails have a finite usable life and those are probably shot.

I hate to say this but I would recommend buying a sail from Hobie. If you ever sell your boat it will knock about $1000 bucks off your resale value if you don't have class legal sails. Plus you could buy a new sail and come to Carlyle, IL in a couple of weeks to sail the nationals. I promise it will be a great time.

Thanks Matt Miller for your response. I'm glad to see a Hobie Cat Representative speak up for their products.

Mike Hill
H20 #791