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Re: lets join forces and get this sorted out [Re: macca] #206206
03/20/10 07:59 AM
03/20/10 07:59 AM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 953
Western Australia
Stewart Offline
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Stewart  Offline
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Western Australia
Originally Posted by macca
Macca has a big degree of frustration with this group!

But I think I have worked it out: The F16 class isn't about sailing at all... Its about creating a mystical world where all sorts of different boats that comply in some way to a very broad rule can start a race on the one start line and then the results can be attributed to a variety of different factors but none of which are allowed to be that the boats are not equal.

You live in a world where carbon masts and alloy masts can compete on equal terms, where boats 25kg apart are equal and one where single handed and double handed boats perform the same. Where the production costs to build a boat to fully utilise the freedoms offered in the rule would extend well above that of an A Class.

In short you are dreaming! Whilst you do this, the rest of us will get out there and go sailing (its a sport, on the water and we all compete on equal terms, try it some day!)



well frustration goes both ways mate..
Maybe you should only sail a mythical SMOD which has absolute quality control. Evel AHPC or Bethwaite cant guarantee their rigs are exactly the same when they leave the factory.. Never the less its what you expect

what you are really saying is..
make weight equal to Vipers.. Because its what you think is acceptable.. Which would mean our rating will have to change.

ban all carbon .. So ban stealths or grandfather them as is.. then what if Pearce at Stealth marine wants to update the design?
Make all other designs carry weight..
split class into those who wish to solo and those who sail two up. Because obviously one will naturally be quicker. You suggesting two starts?


Last edited by Stewart; 03/20/10 11:32 AM.
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Re: lets join forces and get this sorted out [Re: macca] #206207
03/20/10 08:44 AM
03/20/10 08:44 AM
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 893
W
waynemarlow Offline
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waynemarlow  Offline
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Posts: 893
Originally Posted by macca
Macca has a big degree of frustration with this group!


I give you some dues Macca, for a person who has no real affiliation to a class, doesn't own a class legal boat, doesn't even sail in class regattas, you can still bang on and on and on about the one subject, year after year, getting absolutely no where and then you come up with the statement above.

Gosh that really is news to all of us, ever thought what the majority of class members think of your efforts so far ?

Re: lets join forces and get this sorted out [Re: waynemarlow] #206210
03/20/10 10:02 AM
03/20/10 10:02 AM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,118
Northfield Mn
Karl_Brogger Offline
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Northfield Mn
Originally Posted by macca
Macca has a big degree of frustration with this group!


I'm a cabinetmaker. Been doing it quite a while. Even own my own company. When I go on a woodworking forum made up of mostly hobbiest's, they all seem like a pack of idiots. Is this a similar case? Are we a pack of idiots to you?

Careful now, slippery slope. eek

Re: lets join forces and get this sorted out [Re: Karl_Brogger] #206212
03/20/10 10:41 AM
03/20/10 10:41 AM
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pgp Offline
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Hey! This is serious stuff! No sense of humor allowed. wink


Pete Pollard
Blade 702

'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.

Re: lets join forces and get this sorted out [Re: Karl_Brogger] #206213
03/20/10 10:45 AM
03/20/10 10:45 AM
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 2,584
+31NL
Tony_F18 Offline
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Originally Posted by Karl_Brogger

I'm a cabinetmaker. Been doing it quite a while. Even own my own company. When I go on a woodworking forum made up of mostly hobbiest's, they all seem like a pack of idiots.

I take offense to that statement, and so does Mr. IKEA.

Re: lets join forces and get this sorted out [Re: Stewart] #206219
03/20/10 04:26 PM
03/20/10 04:26 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,021
Australia
macca Offline
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macca  Offline
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Originally Posted by Stewart


well frustration goes both ways mate..
Maybe you should only sail a mythical SMOD which has absolute quality control. Evel AHPC or Bethwaite cant guarantee their rigs are exactly the same when they leave the factory.. Never the less its what you expect


I have never stated that SMOD is the answer, you just need a set of rules that promote fair racing between boats that are as equal as possible. The current situation does not allow for that.


Originally Posted by Stewart

what you are really saying is..
make weight equal to Vipers.. Because its what you think is acceptable.. Which would mean our rating will have to change.


Lets examine that for a moment: The Viper is the best performing boat at the moment, yet its heavier... Now if you run the Viper on Texel rating it comes in at 104, so all the other F16's built to the min weight have to give 3 points to the Viper? and they are behind it on the water anyhow!!

Originally Posted by Stewart

ban all carbon .. So ban stealths or grandfather them as is.. then what if Pearce at Stealth marine wants to update the design?


Just ban Carbon in hulls,masts, beams, booms, poles etc. You still need it in the foils. Grandfathering the boats already built is a suitable way to keep those owners engaged and I am sure that the builders that currently offer Carbon masts etc will be ok with it.. their margins will only increase...



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Re: lets join forces and get this sorted out [Re: macca] #206224
03/20/10 07:19 PM
03/20/10 07:19 PM
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 1,479
Thailand
Buccaneer Offline
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Buccaneer  Offline
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Thailand
Macca.... cool [Linked Image]


"House prices have risen by nearly 25 percent over the past two years. Although speculative activity has increased in some areas, at a national level these price increases largely reflect strong economic fundamentals." Ben Bernanke 2005
Re: lets join forces and get this sorted out [Re: HJS] #206225
03/20/10 07:23 PM
03/20/10 07:23 PM
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 1,479
Thailand
Buccaneer Offline
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Buccaneer  Offline
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Thailand
A = Australian
H = Heavy
P = Performance
C = Catamarans

Sorry could not resist... whistle

Originally Posted by HJS
Very interesting and amusing thread.... Better than any soapy on the TV...

As I understand it, Macca has a marketing degree, has been working in the sailing industry for a number of years, and yet most of you think his opinions are considered crap and attack him personally!! I do not know Macca personally, but surely the F16 association cannot be SO precious that they attack people who may be giving them some wise advice.

And by the way.... It is A H P C..... not APHC or AHCP or any other mixture of letters.

A = Australian
H = High
P = Performance
C = Catamarans


"House prices have risen by nearly 25 percent over the past two years. Although speculative activity has increased in some areas, at a national level these price increases largely reflect strong economic fundamentals." Ben Bernanke 2005
Re: lets join forces and get this sorted out [Re: Buccaneer] #206229
03/20/10 08:43 PM
03/20/10 08:43 PM
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 539
taipanfc Offline
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Originally Posted by Buccaneer
A = Australian
H = Heavy
P = Performance
C = Catamarans

Sorry could not resist... whistle

Originally Posted by HJS
Very interesting and amusing thread.... Better than any soapy on the TV...

As I understand it, Macca has a marketing degree, has been working in the sailing industry for a number of years, and yet most of you think his opinions are considered crap and attack him personally!! I do not know Macca personally, but surely the F16 association cannot be SO precious that they attack people who may be giving them some wise advice.

And by the way.... It is A H P C..... not APHC or AHCP or any other mixture of letters.

A = Australian
H = High
P = Performance
C = Catamarans


A = Asia
H = Heavy
P = Performance
C = Catamarans

Sorry, one quick final edit, hehe. Especially since they don't build the boats in Australia anymore...

Re: lets join forces and get this sorted out [Re: taipanfc] #206234
03/20/10 09:10 PM
03/20/10 09:10 PM
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 65
Vic, Australia
HJS Offline
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HJS  Offline
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Posts: 65
Vic, Australia
The HULLS are made in Asia, The Masts are made in US.... Some of the fittings are made in UK, and some others in Italy.....

and of course, the sails, rigging, other fittings, fitout etc etc are done in Australia.

Maybe they should call themselves IHPC.... I = International

Re: lets join forces and get this sorted out [Re: macca] #206236
03/20/10 09:39 PM
03/20/10 09:39 PM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 953
Western Australia
Stewart Offline
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Stewart  Offline
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Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 953
Western Australia
So if I want to build a boat I cant..

AHPC made a decision to build the boat they did.. No one forced them.. No one gave a blanket ruling saying you must do.. They chose so now you make others jump to their business decisions.. Again I suggest you get AHPC to disclose all business planning, hull profile details so the other builders can duplicate their business model exactly.. not 99% 100%..

Now if AHPC does they are stupid and I dont think Greg is..

So they leaves the F16 as a class in a choice.. become 104 where a 19 footer is equal to a 15 footer or remain as formula class inside a semi open box rule..

Last edited by Stewart; 03/20/10 09:45 PM.
Re: lets join forces and get this sorted out [Re: taipanfc] #206240
03/20/10 09:59 PM
03/20/10 09:59 PM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 953
Western Australia
Stewart Offline
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Stewart  Offline
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Western Australia
this should stop right now..

Re: Why does Macca hate F16s? [Re: Wouter] #206244
03/20/10 11:15 PM
03/20/10 11:15 PM
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 337
Victoria, Australia
C2 Mike Offline
enthusiast
C2 Mike  Offline
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Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 337
Victoria, Australia
Originally Posted by Wouter


Macca,

Quote

If the Carbon mast is no quicker, why allow it??



If the carbon mast is no quicker, why DISallow it ?

Are we really claiming here that the customers don't know what is going on.

We don't allow diamond inlays in the hulls either; if someone wants to spend money on that then why prevent it ? The F16 class rules are engineered to allow for fair racing between boats of different makes while allowing maximal personal freedom, not to prevent some person from wasting money on unnecessary things.

Isn't it time we start treating catamaran buyers like capable adults, you know, WITH a brain of their own ?

Wouter


You have made some excellent points above and the statement that the class is targeted at "weekend warriors" is very important.

For me the weekend warrior is the perfect market (I consider myself one). With this in mind surely the rule set should reflect and encourage boats that support their audience?

To me as an interested observer from the peanut gallery, the class is trying to serve 2 masters. It is trying to be a virtual anything goes development class that is viewed at the forefront of technology and sell that concept to the average guy who wants to go for a yacht on Saturday with the family. Putting my marketing hat on, that will be a very hard ask in the longer term. As a boat buyer, the underlying perception (right or wrong) with "High Tech", Carbon masts/beams and the like = "EXPENSIVE" which could turn an otherwise sure sale into one that got away.

I understand your point about self regulation in your point about M20's however the pessimist in me says these materials when used as part of a boat design that is soundly designed and fully developed (ie somebody spends a lot of money on it) will clean up. Right now I don't think (with all due respect) the prestige is high enough in winning a F16 Global Challenge to warrant such an investment. Over time as the class builds and winning such an event means something significant (in a broader sense) it is inevitable that someone(s) will invest the money. Then there is a problem as the class becomes out of reach of it's "weekend warrior" roots and becomes the latest gun class for a few years or so till the next one comes along.

I think it should be considered by the executive committee at the very least.

Tiger Mike

Re: Why does Macca hate F16s? [Re: C2 Mike] #206263
03/21/10 06:15 AM
03/21/10 06:15 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
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Wouter  Offline
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North-West Europe
I just wish to add that the F16 class acts (is intended to act) as a feeder to both the F18 class and the A-cat class.

We are halfway between a very tightly controlled (overweight) formula class and a rather loosely controlled (flyweight) development formula class.

Over time the F18 class increasingly allowed for the use of carbon in their components; otherwise the high aspect daggerboards could not be made stiff enough. The F16 class simply avoided that by not regulating on any material choices at all. When we wrote the class rules, we already saw the writing on the wall. Same with the decision to not copy the weight equalisation system of he F18's (two different size jibs and spinnakers). Rather be right straight away then have to increasingly open up the class rules by repeated votes.

But if a customer is not willing to lay down 19800 USD (18.000 Euro with taxes) for a lightweight carbon masted Falcon F16 but is willing to pay 19.815 Euro with taxes for an heavy alu masted Hobie Wildcat F18 then I guess the F16 class is just not the right class for him.

As we are saying over and over again. F16's still have considerable leeway with it comes down to purchase costs even when fitted with carbon upgrades (about 2000 Euro leeway). At some point we also have to accept that catamaran sailing is not an inexpensive sport and the average joe will never take to it. In short, the pricing of F16's is right for the target groups.

Hell, even the most basic Hobie 16 costs 10.585 Euro's already (more with various upgrades like coloured sails). A bare Strict One-Design like the (140 kg) FX-one is already 14.000 Euro without a jib kit, spi kit, selftacker kit, carbon rudder upgrades, Pentex sails upgrade, etc. I figure an alu masted (105 kg) Falcon can be had for as little as 12.500 Euro when the same stuff is removed (fully fitted for 2-up = 15.000 Euro/111 kg). Other F16 makes like the Stealth are even cheaper !


http://www.falconmarinellc.com/falcon_pricing_2009.pdf

http://www.proust-sailing.com/hobie-polyester-55/


Really people, the facts are staring us in the face and really do show a very positive outlook for the F16's as it is setup now. If there is one thing I learned while racing catamarans then it must be :

"When you are ahead, stop fiddling about with the trim"

Wouter

Last edited by Wouter; 03/21/10 06:46 AM.

Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: lets join forces and get this sorted out [Re: Buccaneer] #206405
03/23/10 07:28 AM
03/23/10 07:28 AM
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 37
Western Europe
ClaytonF16 Offline
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ClaytonF16  Offline
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Posts: 37
Western Europe
Originally Posted by Buccaneer
Macca.... cool [Linked Image]


Ha Ha HA Ha Ha Ha Ha........Love your work Mr Bucaneer.

10 out of 10.


Ah........Ha HA HA Ha AH Ah Aha ahha aha ah uuughhhh.......got sticthes now from laughing so hard.

Re: lets join forces and get this sorted out [Re: Buccaneer] #206406
03/23/10 07:35 AM
03/23/10 07:35 AM
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 37
Western Europe
ClaytonF16 Offline
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Originally Posted by Buccaneer
A = Australian
H = Heavy
P = Performance
C = Catamarans

Sorry could not resist... whistle





Ahhhh.....now I cant breath......ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ... your the man.....you guys crack me up.

Re: lets join forces and get this sorted out [Re: macca] #206409
03/23/10 07:55 AM
03/23/10 07:55 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
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North-West Europe
Quote

Lets examine that for a moment: The Viper is the best performing boat at the moment, yet its heavier... Now if you run the Viper on Texel rating it comes in at 104, so all the other F16's built to the min weight have to give 3 points to the Viper? and they are behind it on the water anyhow!!



Lets get one thing perfectly straight.

The Vipers did very well at the last Global Challenge (2009), but were beaten at earlier GC's even when sailed by the likes of Greg himself. For example both the VWM Blade and Aussie Blade finished ahead in 2007 and regular weekend crews are properly mixed up with non-viper weekend crews in other events.

Winning one single F16 event when having participated in all GC's over the last 3 years is not enough basis to warrant the claim that the Viper is the best performing boat at the moment. Both the Stealth design and Blade won earlier versions of the event and can rightfully lay identical claims to that title.

Also the F16's are rated under Texel as 102 (when in 2-up mode as indeed the 104 Viper is); the difference is therefor only 2 points ! OR if you will 72 seconds per hour of bouy racing.

The 101 rating belongs to a 1-up F16's ONLY; as indeed the 1-up Viper will be rated faster then the 104 2-up Viper.


Be smart Macca and do some research before you spout off inaccuracies and plain non-sense on the public airwaves.

Wouter

Last edited by Wouter; 03/23/10 07:57 AM.

Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: lets join forces and get this sorted out [Re: Wouter] #206412
03/23/10 08:33 AM
03/23/10 08:33 AM
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 37
Western Europe
ClaytonF16 Offline
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ClaytonF16  Offline
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Western Europe
Quote

The Viper is the best performing boat at the moment!


Only because you are comparing top sailors equiped with 20 years of rig development from the Tiapan era to club sailors on new designs.

Re: lets join forces and get this sorted out [Re: Wouter] #206419
03/23/10 10:45 AM
03/23/10 10:45 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,021
Australia
macca Offline
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macca  Offline
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Posts: 1,021
Australia
Originally Posted by Wouter

Lets get one thing perfectly straight.

The Vipers did very well at the last Global Challenge (2009), but were beaten at earlier GC's even when sailed by the likes of Greg himself. For example both the VWM Blade and Aussie Blade finished ahead in 2007 and regular weekend crews are properly mixed up with non-viper weekend crews in other events.

Winning one single F16 event when having participated in all GC's over the last 3 years is not enough basis to warrant the claim that the Viper is the best performing boat at the moment. Both the Stealth design and Blade won earlier versions of the event and can rightfully lay identical claims to that title.

Also the F16's are rated under Texel as 102 (when in 2-up mode as indeed the 104 Viper is); the difference is therefor only 2 points ! OR if you will 72 seconds per hour of bouy racing.

The 101 rating belongs to a 1-up F16's ONLY; as indeed the 1-up Viper will be rated faster then the 104 2-up Viper.


Be smart Macca and do some research before you spout off inaccuracies and plain non-sense on the public airwaves.

Wouter



The Viper is the quickest boat, here is a prediction for you all: The Viper will win its class at Carnac, Texel, the F16 thingy at lake Como and the intergalactic thing if it happens.

Why am I so sure? Because it is a faster boat..!!

And Wouter, I have not stated a falsehood: in F16 class racing you all run the boats off the same handicap, yet in Texel rating its done differently. So a one up F16 V's a 2 up Viper has a 3 point advantage.


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Re: lets join forces and get this sorted out [Re: ClaytonF16] #206420
03/23/10 10:47 AM
03/23/10 10:47 AM
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Australia
macca Offline
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macca  Offline
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Australia
Originally Posted by ClaytonF16
Quote

The Viper is the best performing boat at the moment!


Only because you are comparing top sailors equiped with 20 years of rig development from the Tiapan era to club sailors on new designs.


Regardless of history Its still quicker now..


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