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F18 Texel Rating changed... #206926
03/27/10 12:42 PM
03/27/10 12:42 PM
Joined: Sep 2004
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Tony_F18 Offline OP
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According to the Texel Rating F18s now rate 100 instead of 101.
Getting faster every year?
Full list: http://www.knwv.nl/data/documents/Zeilen/Texelrating/numdet%2014-3-2010.pdf

Last edited by Tony_F18; 03/27/10 12:43 PM.
-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: F18 Texel Rating changed... [Re: Tony_F18] #206927
03/27/10 12:44 PM
03/27/10 12:44 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,293
Long Beach, California
John Williams Offline
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Shouldn't be a surprise - sail and rig development are advancing nicely. There's way more juice in my 2009 boat than my 2006 boat.


John Williams

- The harder you practice, the luckier you get -
Gary Player, pro golfer

After watching Lionel Messi play, I realize I need to sail harder.
Re: F18 Texel Rating changed... [Re: John Williams] #206939
03/27/10 05:06 PM
03/27/10 05:06 PM
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 586
Hobart, Tasmania, Oz.
Dazz Offline
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http://www.ctcnederland.nl/Pagina.php?parentpaginaid=7&paginaid=45

I thought texel rating is a mathematical rating based on specifications. has the f18 specs changed?


C2 AUS 222 by Goodall design
"Darph Bobo"
Re: F18 Texel Rating changed... [Re: Dazz] #206978
03/28/10 01:51 PM
03/28/10 01:51 PM
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 246
Kiel, Germany
Baltic Offline
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Baltic  Offline
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I agree to Dazz. Apart from this, how should a 10 years old Hobie Tiger become faster? Obviously boats like the Wildcat, Infusion and C2 are faster than the F18s of the 1st generation - but it's not fair to change the rating retroactive.


F18: C2 / A-Cat: Minelli
Re: F18 Texel Rating changed... [Re: Dazz] #206996
03/29/10 04:58 AM
03/29/10 04:58 AM
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,203
uk
TEAMVMG Offline
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Texel is not a measurement based rating, its performance based on the average boat in a fleet.
top F18s are getting so much faster that the average has go up eventually


Paul

teamvmg.weebly.com
Re: F18 Texel Rating changed... [Re: TEAMVMG] #207037
03/29/10 09:54 AM
03/29/10 09:54 AM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,304
Gulf Coast relocated from Cali...
TeamChums Offline
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TeamChums  Offline
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I wish the Portsmouth numbers would do this.


Lee

Keyboard sailors are always faster in all conditions.
Re: F18 Texel Rating changed... [Re: TeamChums] #207046
03/29/10 10:19 AM
03/29/10 10:19 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,906
Clermont, FL, USA
David Ingram Offline
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Originally Posted by TeamChums
I wish the Portsmouth numbers would do this.


They do. Since Darline has passed nobody has come forward to replace her and unless a DPN believer comes forward things will remain as is. A system is only as good as what you are willing to put into it.

You always have the option to use a different handicap system.


David Ingram
F18 USA 242
http://www.solarwind.solar

"Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda
"Excuses are the tools of the weak and incompetent" - Two sista's I overheard in the hall
"You don't have to be a brain surgeon to be a complete idiot, but it helps"
Re: F18 Texel Rating changed... [Re: David Ingram] #207085
03/29/10 04:04 PM
03/29/10 04:04 PM
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 586
Hobart, Tasmania, Oz.
Dazz Offline
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But texel IS a formula!!! but they have changed it. still f18, f16, a-class have all different shaped mains, who's did they measure?



Originally Posted by geert
As I'm also involved in this; indeed the formula is changed this year.

The differences are not big but we try to get closer to reality.

The document can be found on http://www.texelrating.org/ (open cats)

The text on the website is:

-----------
Update for 2010
New method of rating sails
Since 1982 the aspect ratio has been used to calculate the efficiency of sails.. Modern square top mainsails are more efficient than triangular mainsails. The aspect ratio approach is not correct for ‘modern’ sails. In Australia a new system already has been introduced in 2008. In the OMR, (offshore multihull rule), for around 140 cabin multihulls of the multihull yacht club of Queensland. In 2008 comparable new formulas have been tested in Holland which will be introduced in the Netherlands, Germany and Norway and other countries.
The new formula for the mainsail is a combination of two values. One is the measure of rectangularity of the main. That is sail area main divided by the rectangle p times e. (p being the height of the sail (vlm), the length of the luff, e being the dimension e, the length of the foot of the main). The other ratio is the ratio (p/e). A higher and narrower mainsail is more efficient. The product of both values gives: msam_ex_mast / (p * e) * (p / e) = msam_ ex_mast / e ^ 2.
The formula to find the right efficiency factor is:
Efficiency factor main = c 1 * (msam_ex_mast / e^2) ^ p 1. For beach multihulls
The constant c 1 = 0.67, the power p 1 = 0.3
The efficiency of jibs is based on the ratio: msag / lpg^2.
Lpg is the perpendicular from tack to luff. The formula being used is:
Efficiency factor jib = c 2 * (msag/ lpg^2). ^ p 1
The constant c 2 =0.72, the power p 1 = 0.3
For cabin multihulls the formulas are the same as the one for the beach multihulls., The rated areas will be:
rsam = eff. factor main * msam_ex_mast + area mast (if a swivelling mast). For open cats msam always includes the area of a swivelling mast if that is the case. No separate adding of the mast area.
rsag = eff. factor jib * msag.
Basic TR formula
To harmonize the basic Texel Rating formula with the ones used since 1997 in Australia for a group of around 170 cabin multihulls and in France for a group of around 120 multihulls, the decision is made to return for the open cats to the formula used here before 2002, resulting in TR = 100 / (1.15 * RL ^ 0.3* RSA ^ 0.4 / RW ^ 0.325). For all cabin multihulls the constant 1.15 is lowered to 1, like in both foreign countries. That changes the absolute values of the rating numbers, but not their relative positions..
Correction for no dagger board(s) or centre board(s)
The correction factor for designs without efficient dagger board or centre board is changed from 1.03 in 1.04
-------

Geert


C2 AUS 222 by Goodall design
"Darph Bobo"
Re: F18 Texel Rating changed... [Re: TEAMVMG] #207114
03/30/10 03:04 AM
03/30/10 03:04 AM
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Posts: 1,449
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phill Offline
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Originally Posted by TEAMVMG
Texel is not a measurement based rating, its performance based on the average boat in a fleet.
top F18s are getting so much faster that the average has go up eventually

Paul,
Are there two Texel systems?


I know that the voices in my head aint real,
but they have some pretty good ideas.
There is no such thing as a quick fix and I've never had free lunch!

Re: F18 Texel Rating changed... [Re: David Ingram] #207135
03/30/10 08:44 AM
03/30/10 08:44 AM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,304
Gulf Coast relocated from Cali...
TeamChums Offline
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Quote
They do.


Not in direct relation to the performance I've seen on the West Coast, Gulf and East Coast in regards to the F18 vs. N20.

Quote
Since Darline has passed nobody has come forward to replace her and unless a DPN believer comes forward things will remain as is


So, in the whole US Sailing organization, nobody is addressing this issue? Since the T's are out of the Olympics, I would hope my dues go to something that benifits the beach cats.


Lee

Keyboard sailors are always faster in all conditions.
Re: F18 Texel Rating changed... [Re: TeamChums] #207142
03/30/10 09:45 AM
03/30/10 09:45 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,906
Clermont, FL, USA
David Ingram Offline
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David Ingram  Offline
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Originally Posted by TeamChums

Not in direct relation to the performance I've seen on the West Coast, Gulf and East Coast in regards to the F18 vs. N20.

So, in the whole US Sailing organization, nobody is addressing this issue? Since the T's are out of the Olympics, I would hope my dues go to something that benifits the beach cats.


Lee, You're name is Lee, correct? After the initial number for a boat is created (which is measurement based) the number changes based on the data received and processed, that's how DPN is supposed to work.

Problem 1, data has always been VERY hard to come by, and it's everyone's responsibility to submit results but only a small minority make the effort.

Problem 2, Darline wanted someone to take over the DPN task long ago and NOBODY stepped forward. So, she did the best she could for us.

Problem 3, and this is our biggest problem APATHY, it is rampant and it is our enemy!

Now we can sit here and say "I pay my USSailing dues it's USSailng's responsibility to take care of it" Maybe it is maybe it's not, at this stage I don't care. The point is if you want this issue addressed "WE" (the sailors) have to address it.

Personally this issue isn't high on my priority list, handicap racing is for pu$$ies. Why people give so much cred to handicap results is still a bit of a head scratcher for me. Yeah, yeah... the area quals use handicap racing to pick the area reps...bring me something that satisfies all the requirements and I'll be your biggest fan.



David Ingram
F18 USA 242
http://www.solarwind.solar

"Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda
"Excuses are the tools of the weak and incompetent" - Two sista's I overheard in the hall
"You don't have to be a brain surgeon to be a complete idiot, but it helps"
Re: F18 Texel Rating changed... [Re: David Ingram] #207144
03/30/10 09:57 AM
03/30/10 09:57 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,293
Long Beach, California
John Williams Offline
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John Williams  Offline
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It is a volunteer organization. For our niche, we have run out of volunteers. I'll have some news by the end of the week.


John Williams

- The harder you practice, the luckier you get -
Gary Player, pro golfer

After watching Lionel Messi play, I realize I need to sail harder.
Re: F18 Texel Rating changed... [Re: David Ingram] #207167
03/30/10 01:07 PM
03/30/10 01:07 PM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,304
Gulf Coast relocated from Cali...
TeamChums Offline
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Quote
Lee, You're name is Lee, correct?


Yes it is, that's why I put it at the bottom of my posts.

Quote
handicap racing is for pu$$ies.


Interesting analysis of the Area Qualifiers and those who compete in them. I would love to sit around a fire and discuss the topic with you sometime since I'm sure mood is lost over the internet. I so much more enjoy being called childish names in person rather than behind the safety of a keyboard.
I guess the main point is that things haven't seemed to change in the last few years. I appreciate all that the volunteers have done to give us numbers to begin with. I wish I had time to dedicate to help the cause.
John, what can I do to help and get involved. I've bitched enough, now it's time I tried to help with things.


Lee

Keyboard sailors are always faster in all conditions.
Re: F18 Texel Rating changed... [Re: TeamChums] #207169
03/30/10 01:21 PM
03/30/10 01:21 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,906
Clermont, FL, USA
David Ingram Offline
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David Ingram  Offline
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Clermont, FL, USA
Did you know I sail in my area qualifier every year?


David Ingram
F18 USA 242
http://www.solarwind.solar

"Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda
"Excuses are the tools of the weak and incompetent" - Two sista's I overheard in the hall
"You don't have to be a brain surgeon to be a complete idiot, but it helps"
Re: F18 Texel Rating changed... [Re: phill] #207179
03/30/10 02:53 PM
03/30/10 02:53 PM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 67
Netherlands
geert Offline
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geert  Offline
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Posts: 67
Netherlands
Phill,

There is one general Texel Rating system, it's formula based.
That means we take the dimensions of a boat, put it in a formula and that gives the rating

But there are versions, a beachcat version and cabin cat/tri version.

The bigger cabin cat and tri's have provision for screechers etc..

And there are a couple of variants on the Texel Rating systems, for instance the Australian multihull yacht club of Queensland uses a slightly modified version of the Texel Rating.

Geert

Geert

Re: F18 Texel Rating changed... [Re: phill] #207180
03/30/10 03:31 PM
03/30/10 03:31 PM
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,203
uk
TEAMVMG Offline
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TEAMVMG  Offline
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Originally Posted by phill
Originally Posted by TEAMVMG
Texel is not a measurement based rating, its performance based on the average boat in a fleet.
top F18s are getting so much faster that the average has go up eventually

Paul,
Are there two Texel systems?


Yes, there are 2 systems....

The proper one and the one that only I can operate in my head!

Sorry about that, i was sure that I had read about how they knock out the top% and bottom% from each class of finishers and work out the number based on the average for the mid fleet!

I'll get me' coat....


Paul

teamvmg.weebly.com
Re: F18 Texel Rating changed... [Re: TEAMVMG] #207181
03/30/10 03:48 PM
03/30/10 03:48 PM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 67
Netherlands
geert Offline
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geert  Offline
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Netherlands

Quote
i was sure that I had read about how they knock out the top% and bottom% from each class of finishers and work out the number based on the average for the mid fleet!


That part is correct!

Nico Boon makes these analyses every year, so that we have an indication if our formula is still correct.

Geert

Re: F18 Texel Rating changed... [Re: David Ingram] #207182
03/30/10 04:07 PM
03/30/10 04:07 PM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,304
Gulf Coast relocated from Cali...
TeamChums Offline
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TeamChums  Offline
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Quote
Did you know I sail in my area qualifier every year?


No, since I usually never read the bottom half of results posted.


Lee

Keyboard sailors are always faster in all conditions.
Re: F18 Texel Rating changed... [Re: TeamChums] #207189
03/30/10 05:51 PM
03/30/10 05:51 PM
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 586
Hobart, Tasmania, Oz.
Dazz Offline
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Hobart, Tasmania, Oz.
Thanks for clearing that up Geert.

were not doing any betting in Oz, the VYC (Victorian Yardstick Council) have maintained the handicaps for off the beach craft for many years, John Donaldson has maintained the system for the last 18 years and has retired some 9 months ago now. still no one has stepped up to the plate to replace him.

not looking good at all!


C2 AUS 222 by Goodall design
"Darph Bobo"
Re: F18 Texel Rating changed... [Re: John Williams] #207207
03/30/10 11:37 PM
03/30/10 11:37 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline
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Mark Schneider  Offline
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John

Why doesn't the multihull council and USSA simply pick between Texel or SCHRS for the Area Qualifiers for the Alter Cup championships?

Clubs could then choose between the 2008 Portsmouth table and the measurement rule for their local handicap racing.


crac.sailregattas.com
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