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Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update [Re: P.M.] #207982
04/11/10 09:47 PM
04/11/10 09:47 PM
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 3,224
Roanoke Island ,N.C.
Team_Cat_Fever Offline
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Roanoke Island ,N.C.
Yes I was.
Over 50,(owners, not members) I can look it up exactly. I gave the info to Trey, and he will do something with it,database wise. He's been busy with paying work.If someone wanted to step up and run with it I think he'd be OK with that ,and I certainly would welcome anyone to start a communication line amongst owners.We had hoped the N-20 site(that Trey and Tad built) would have helped lay the groundwork for that,but it never seemed to take off.Maybe an Email list or something is the way to go.
Todd
p.s.Phillip, I know I owe you a call, I'll try tomorrow.


"I said, now, I said ,pay attention boy!"

The cure for anything is salt water - sweat, tears, or the sea
Isak Dinesen
If a man is to be obsessed by something.... I suppose a boat is as good as anything... perhaps a bit better than most.
E. B. White
-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update [Re: ] #207983
04/11/10 09:52 PM
04/11/10 09:52 PM
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 3,224
Roanoke Island ,N.C.
Team_Cat_Fever Offline
Carpal Tunnel
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Roanoke Island ,N.C.
Originally Posted by MarkMT
Originally Posted by samc99us
2) This is the most active/vocal group available.

In what sense? There are nine boats in CRAW alone.


I think the operative word there is VOCAL not "active".
Sam, there are active fleets besides the one you know of. CRAW and San Diego for sure.



"I said, now, I said ,pay attention boy!"

The cure for anything is salt water - sweat, tears, or the sea
Isak Dinesen
If a man is to be obsessed by something.... I suppose a boat is as good as anything... perhaps a bit better than most.
E. B. White
Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update [Re: Team_Cat_Fever] #207997
04/12/10 06:45 AM
04/12/10 06:45 AM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,304
Gulf Coast relocated from Cali...
TeamChums Offline
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Ok, I see Sam99 posting the words "I" continuously when referring to pushing for changes. Who is he? He posts no name at the bottom of his posts. Is he someone we all agreed on as a spokes person for us. As far as I can tell, his keyboard may be outrunning his knowledge of the N20 facts. How long has he been sailing on one? Did he just get one and become an authority on the class now?


Lee

Keyboard sailors are always faster in all conditions.
Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update [Re: TeamChums] #208000
04/12/10 07:12 AM
04/12/10 07:12 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline
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Jake  Offline
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South Carolina
Originally Posted by TeamChums
Ok, I see Sam99 posting the words "I" continuously when referring to pushing for changes. Who is he? He posts no name at the bottom of his posts. Is he someone we all agreed on as a spokes person for us. As far as I can tell, his keyboard may be outrunning his knowledge of the N20 facts. How long has he been sailing on one? Did he just get one and become an authority on the class now?


That's good. Let's start attacking each other now. Let's ramp up this to a full fledged crap fight!

Sam is relatively new to the class but has a lot of valuable energy....and they're already pretty hot around the race course.

Let's talk more solutions and less complaints please.


Jake Kohl
Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update [Re: Jake] #208001
04/12/10 07:19 AM
04/12/10 07:19 AM
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 3,655
Portland, Maine
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ThunderMuffin Offline
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Sam is a young guy who got his boat a year ago and is sailing in The T500 under us this year. He's got a youthful know-it-all-ism that reminds me of me when I first got my H17 and thought I knew it all.

He is enthusiastic though and a pretty smart cookie when it comes to engineering type things. He might be off-base one some of his opinions or on the historical records of fact but his enthusiasm for the boat and class shouldn't be squelched just because his opinions might not be shared by the rest of the group.

Its fairly evident that we all have different ideas about how to handle this sail update. There are some that want to open it up completely. Some that want to open it up to only EP but have it happen "overnight" and then there are those that want a phased-in period.

Are there any groups out there that DONT want the sails to change?

Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update [Re: ThunderMuffin] #208002
04/12/10 07:44 AM
04/12/10 07:44 AM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,304
Gulf Coast relocated from Cali...
TeamChums Offline
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Didnt mean anything bad, I just wanted to know if it were someone I knew already and didnt recognize the name.


Lee

Keyboard sailors are always faster in all conditions.
Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update [Re: TeamChums] #208004
04/12/10 07:57 AM
04/12/10 07:57 AM
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Posts: 3,655
Portland, Maine
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ThunderMuffin Offline
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This is why I'm in favor of a phased-in schedule of sail plan updates.

I don't want to face the fact that overnight, my boat would be uncompetitive unless I spent (doing the maths in me head, $1700 for a new main, $1500 for spin, $800 for jib??) $4000 in a single check. I could pay off my truck for that much. Spending that much at once on sailboat racing doesn't make sense for me.

I suspect that I'm not the only one that has this opinion. I think that if you invalidate those of us who aren't willing to cut a huge check in one fell swoop, the class competition would suffer. I say this, realizing that there ARE people that I would be racing against (if I decide to race again) that would happily cut a check and get the new fast sails.

Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update [Re: ThunderMuffin] #208006
04/12/10 08:02 AM
04/12/10 08:02 AM
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 3,655
Portland, Maine
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ThunderMuffin Offline
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btw,

The nacra 20 class site has been pretty inactive - probably because people don't want to have to go to yet ANOTHER website to get their discussion.

I could setup a mailing list which would be a more passive way of getting class discussion. If you guys think that would be effective (and be used) then we can do that.

Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update [Re: ThunderMuffin] #208007
04/12/10 08:22 AM
04/12/10 08:22 AM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 829
Charleston, SC
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Charleston, SC
Originally Posted by Undecided
This is why I'm in favor of a phased-in schedule of sail plan updates.

I don't want to face the fact that overnight, my boat would be uncompetitive unless I spent (doing the maths in me head, $1700 for a new main, $1500 for spin, $800 for jib??) $4000 in a single check. I could pay off my truck for that much. Spending that much at once on sailboat racing doesn't make sense for me.

I suspect that I'm not the only one that has this opinion. I think that if you invalidate those of us who aren't willing to cut a huge check in one fell swoop, the class competition would suffer. I say this, realizing that there ARE people that I would be racing against (if I decide to race again) that would happily cut a check and get the new fast sails.


I can pretty much guarantee that the development will not happen all at once. Spin, main, then jib, that's the way it'll have to be in order for this to move forward. Additionally, these things take time. Are you going to fund the R&D for all 3 sails at once?

Let's continue with what we've gotten so far as a concession--> developing the spinnaker to be released NO LATER THAN Q1 2011.


Trey
Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update [Re: NCSUtrey] #208009
04/12/10 08:42 AM
04/12/10 08:42 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline
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I like where we're heading. I think the main is the big zinger that really kills performance around the cans but the spinnaker is probably one of the more limiting items in distance racing. The spinnaker is a little less expensive than the main so it's probably a good jumping off point.

I don't think we've seen another SMOD class go through a similar sail development cycle. You have a lot of extremes on either end - static NEVER changing single manufacturer sail platform and an open development open manufacturer sail platform. I think this is a nice controlled step forward and appreciate the effort the guys have put into this so far (sorry I couldn't make the meeting on Friday evening).

The single biggest thing that will help this class is activity through public discussion and racing. New found performance that evolves in a controlled fashion should hopefully shore up the foundation. From the Nacra standpoint, I don't think many of us here are thinking even remotely seriously about buying a new 20 footer that's 10 feet wide so they might as well help us keep the spare parts flow for the 20 alive.


Jake Kohl
Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update [Re: NCSUtrey] #208010
04/12/10 08:48 AM
04/12/10 08:48 AM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 829
Charleston, SC
NCSUtrey Offline
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Charleston, SC
Originally Posted by NCSUtrey
Originally Posted by Undecided
This is why I'm in favor of a phased-in schedule of sail plan updates.

I don't want to face the fact that overnight, my boat would be uncompetitive unless I spent (doing the maths in me head, $1700 for a new main, $1500 for spin, $800 for jib??) $4000 in a single check. I could pay off my truck for that much. Spending that much at once on sailboat racing doesn't make sense for me.

I suspect that I'm not the only one that has this opinion. I think that if you invalidate those of us who aren't willing to cut a huge check in one fell swoop, the class competition would suffer. I say this, realizing that there ARE people that I would be racing against (if I decide to race again) that would happily cut a check and get the new fast sails.


I can pretty much guarantee that the development will not happen all at once. Spin, main, then jib, that's the way it'll have to be in order for this to move forward. Additionally, these things take time. Are you going to fund the R&D for all 3 sails at once?

Let's continue with what we've gotten so far as a concession--> developing the spinnaker to be released NO LATER THAN Q1 2011.


And I say this for several reasons:

I'm not on the Nacra board, but I am the N20 class representative. In order for this to move forward with the class association, we have to play by the rules. Part of those rules are a stepped roll-out for the development. This isn't a fight with the factory/etc, it's just growing pains.

We'll get to where we're headed, just not overnight.


Trey
Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update [Re: NCSUtrey] #208025
04/12/10 10:38 AM
04/12/10 10:38 AM
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 932
Solomon's Island, MD
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samc99us Offline OP
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Solomon's Island, MD
I apologize if I come off strongly as a know-it-all type etc., I have a passion for this sport and would like to see this class grow, because the N20 is one of the best sailing boats I've ever had the opportunity to drive. And no, I don't know all things Nacra by any means, have fought some battles (Performance Sails) that have been fought before and lost; I am learning the hard way and perhaps the time consuming way but I am learning. You are free to find out who I really am-my sail number is at the bottom of all my posts and I competed in Tradewinds and Spring Fever this year; those results are all online.

As far as class spokesperson, I was simply reiterating what was discussed at the meeting; when I emphasize "I" in a post it is to emphasize that it is my opinion, not necessarily those of the class or other's. Trey is technically the N20 class representative, as the somewhat self-appointed class director. I honestly have no beef with this, Trey has more contacts in the industry than most, has been campaigning N20's for a good while and most of his advice is generally sound. If we go tearing each other up, we look like a bunch of fools with no plan to get things done.

Todd, you are correct that I am unaware of who is sailing in CRAW or San Diego, but I am aware of those groups of N20 sailors. My main point was to get those sailors involved, either through catsailor, or personal conversations.

Trey is absolutely correct with the rollout plan; there is not much we can do to force Nacra to a faster time line, perhaps they will be generous and develop the main and jib at the same time. Lets be glad they are willing to do SOMETHING to get the boat speed up above the F18's, where our rating sits.


Scorpion F18
Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update [Re: samc99us] #208035
04/12/10 12:46 PM
04/12/10 12:46 PM
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
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Was I on your boat for one race Saturday at Tradewinds?

I liked the wing masts on the F-16 and I think it would improve performance on a 20 footer.

Not sure if carbon or aluminum would be better material.. Carbon for uniformity, aluminum for price. Maybe when the price of carbon drops back to reasonable levels....

It would seem that the consensus is to tweak the main for better can racing, and the spin for higher reaching angles on distance.

Would one detract from the other (slower on downwind in the can races, for example)?

Do you think Performance handled the rudder design changes appropriately? Should they follow the same strategy for sailplan changes?

I'd like to see that rear beam come up about 2" personally...


Jay

Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update [Re: waterbug_wpb] #208036
04/12/10 12:48 PM
04/12/10 12:48 PM
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Portland, Maine
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ThunderMuffin Offline
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Jay

No, you sailed with Bailey. Not Sam. And it was my boat you were on.

Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update [Re: samc99us] #208037
04/12/10 12:49 PM
04/12/10 12:49 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 833
St. Louis, MO,
Mike Hill Offline
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Mike Hill  Offline
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St. Louis, MO,
As someone that has been around this class for a while I do think we have to be careful to be more inclusive of all parties. We have sigificant fleets around the country. We can't serve the distance fleet or the bouy fleet. We have to serve them both equally.

As a guy who just purchased a new main I don't want to see a new cut show up at Nationals when I arrive in Racine. I think we have to be very clear on when these sails will become available for regular regattas and when they will be allowed for use at Nationals/Tybee/Midwinters?

I also believe that we need to keep the work with Elliot only as we don't have much in the way of quantity. Skip has been great to work with over the years and always handled things quickly and professionally.

We need a good line of communication to the sailors that own boats. We need to communicate what is happening on at least a bi/monthly newsletter sent by email and perhaps posted to a website. It doesn't have to be fancy just a letter stating what the plans are and what votes have been made.

I agree that the main needs work and the spin needs work. I don't want to see them roll out with new designs every year though because that starts an arms race.

Personally I don't think the F18's have gotten that much faster. They've always been this fast. I think the people sailing them have gotten better/faster. Case in point is Mischa on a Tiger for the Tybee. He seemed to go pretty well on the (old) design.



Mike Hill
N20 #1005
Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update [Re: Mike Hill] #208038
04/12/10 12:52 PM
04/12/10 12:52 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,293
Long Beach, California
John Williams Offline
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Long Beach, California
Those were not Tiger sails, Mike. The sail development has marched forward quite a bit in the F18 lofts.


John Williams

- The harder you practice, the luckier you get -
Gary Player, pro golfer

After watching Lionel Messi play, I realize I need to sail harder.
Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update [Re: ThunderMuffin] #208039
04/12/10 01:01 PM
04/12/10 01:01 PM
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
waterbug_wpb Offline
Carpal Tunnel
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Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
Originally Posted by Undecided
Jay

No, you sailed with Bailey. Not Sam. And it was my boat you were on.


That's what I thought. Just trying to put a name to a face on this gentleman.


Jay

Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update [Re: waterbug_wpb] #208040
04/12/10 01:09 PM
04/12/10 01:09 PM

A
andrewscott
Unregistered
andrewscott
Unregistered
A



Originally Posted by waterbug_wpb
I'd like to see that rear beam come up about 2" personally...


I'd like to see the mast about 10' - 15' shorter.. or more.. (like the spin pole at the tybee a few years back).. then maybe i could race and win.. smile

Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update [Re: Mike Hill] #208044
04/12/10 01:34 PM
04/12/10 01:34 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Jake  Offline
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Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Originally Posted by Mike Hill
As someone that has been around this class for a while I do think we have to be careful to be more inclusive of all parties. We have sigificant fleets around the country. We can't serve the distance fleet or the bouy fleet. We have to serve them both equally.

As a guy who just purchased a new main I don't want to see a new cut show up at Nationals when I arrive in Racine. I think we have to be very clear on when these sails will become available for regular regattas and when they will be allowed for use at Nationals/Tybee/Midwinters?

I also believe that we need to keep the work with Elliot only as we don't have much in the way of quantity. Skip has been great to work with over the years and always handled things quickly and professionally.

We need a good line of communication to the sailors that own boats. We need to communicate what is happening on at least a bi/monthly newsletter sent by email and perhaps posted to a website. It doesn't have to be fancy just a letter stating what the plans are and what votes have been made.

I agree that the main needs work and the spin needs work. I don't want to see them roll out with new designs every year though because that starts an arms race.

Personally I don't think the F18's have gotten that much faster. They've always been this fast. I think the people sailing them have gotten better/faster. Case in point is Mischa on a Tiger for the Tybee. He seemed to go pretty well on the (old) design.



I sailed F18 for three years starting about the second generation cycle (when the Nacra F18 came out). I can attest that the sails on the F18 platforms have evolved a great deal since then. They're much flatter today just about everywhere. In general, the F18's have increased their platform speed potential since '05 but it's been a nice gradual evolution that everyone seems to be able to keep pace with.


Jake Kohl
Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update [Re: John Williams] #208046
04/12/10 01:54 PM
04/12/10 01:54 PM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,304
Gulf Coast relocated from Cali...
TeamChums Offline
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Quote
Those were not Tiger sails, Mike. The sail development has marched forward quite a bit in the F18 lofts.


Excactly. The spinn was a new Wildcat spinn. I looked at the main, it was a Zuccoli. Nevertheless, he probably would have had the same results with regular Tiger sails anyway.
Bottom line is, it seems we are getting somewhere with the sailplan. I'm not sure where any resistance is comming from Performance Sails. I contacted them last fall about sails for my N20 and Peter was more than helpful with getting me prices in US dollars. As the rules read now, we can use them. If Skip Elliot has a new design, I would rather use him. For the record, the sail cloth Elliot uses for the main is second to none. The longevity can't be beat. My number 1 main is 4 years old and still is in outstanding shape. I've done 3 GT300's and 2 Tybee's with it and plan on using it again this year.


Lee

Keyboard sailors are always faster in all conditions.
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