If you have a rudder system that only allows full up or full down, you can't steer with the full up, and you may break your rudders with the full down when you are going through surf in shallow water. So you need something that allows an in-between setting; right? So what rudder systems work best for going through surf?

I know the Hobie system probably works, since surf is what the Hobies were originally designed for. But what OTHER rudder systems work?

Supercat......(ARC)

Okay, so how does it work? And can that system be adapted to other boats?

John Pierce has a cassette system where the rudders can be slip up and down in the casting vertically rather than pivoting. The advantage of this is that the rudder can be set partially down with good steering and no extra stain on the rudder or casting.

See: http://www.geocities.com/stealthmarine2002/t-foil.html

[Note the way the rudder can slide straight up or down within the castin--no pivoting. T-foils is a whole other issue...]

Downside is that they don't kick up. I think a system like John's but that can still kick up (as a safety feature) would be best for any sailing off the beach. I believe one of the new Farrier tris has such a system (but a lot bigger).

I like that.

If I can procure some extra rudder blades I might try that. (the t-foils)

good luck getting the angle right! what you need are adjustable t-foils like some of the skiff guys are experimenting with. The idea being downwind you can point the foil down to keep the bow high and resist pitchpoling at speed and upwind to point them up to get the bow down and the boat pointing well.

You engineers are to focused on getting it right the first time.... whatever happened to good ole trial and error huh?

Hi Mary,
None of todays popular boats have rudder heads that offer sufficient structural support to the rudder blade when the rudder blade is in the horrizontal or partially down position. The latest fad in rudder heads is an abbreviated design that offers structural support to the system when the rudder blade is in the fully down position only. These rudder heads designed for deep water starts only. Why did the builders change rudder head design? Ans. WEIGHT.
You can cut off all the rudder head framework aft of the rudder pivot bolt and save about 1 pound of rudder head weight. Now you have lost all structural support for the rudder in the partially up or fully up position. Why did all the rudder heads get broken at Jensen Beach a few years ago in the Worrell Race. Ans. No structural integrety in the system when the rudder blade is in a partially down position and used to steer the boat; no rudder head framework or casting aft of the rudder pivot pin.
Who makes a rudder head that does support the rudder properly in all positions? You know who....
Bill

Yes

I'd beg to differ with you on this.

I realize that my H17 rudder castings aren't made out of solid steel, but I've had to sail a good 5 miles in a stiff 15 knot breeze with my rudders up because my traveller broke and I wanted to stay within 10' of the beach.

While I wasn't all that sure that my tillers could take the force, the castings, which are 12 years old, did fine.

In fact, I'd wager to say that the boards would break before the castings. I'm not going to offer mine for testing though.

A big part of the problem in the Worrell is not just the lack of support for the blade. You can support it all day long, but if your boat is pushed backwards by the surf and your rudders dig into the sand.....well... something is going to break. Yes, the castings got split and rudders broke, but support throughout the rang of the blade (up-down) is not going to save you every time. I think I would rather see a casting or blade break before the gudgeons got ripped off. The construction of the blade also makes a big difference. Stock I-20 rudders don't have the strongest heads.

p.s. Dotans look really cool. I don't have any experience with them, but I understand Lamorak was doing well with them in the Tybee 5.

Okay, so none of them are any good. We all know that. So back to my original question. Which of them is the best for surf? We have to work with what's available. And we DO need rudders on our boats. So if you have to pick one of these totally inadequate rudder systems, which should it be?

And if the situation is so deplorably bad, why doesn't somebody invent something that works?

And, Bill, I know you are going to say you already invented it. But that doesn't do the rest of us any good if it isn't available on the market as a retrofit item for all of our boats.

P.S. About Dotans. They have the same problem I mentioned in the beginning -- either all up or all down, and no halfway for steerage through surf.

I have and use a modified Hobie system on my boat and think it works very well.

I think the Nacra system is the best for going through surf, but is not as good once you are out there. Notice that many of the HT's in the Tybee 500 had a knock off of this. However some had a different system that worked in a simmilar manner.

The stock Bimarre system is kinda awkward to work and probably tough to get down while trying to sail through surf.

I like the simplicity of the Inter system, but laks a little in the "beef" department.

The Prindle rudders lock down well, but getting them locked and unlocked was always my biggest problem.

For sheer elegance, you can't beat the Marstrom T-boat system.

Will R

I've sailed a few boats out there and I really like my Nacra system. I've never had the 'creeping' problem that a lot of folks complain of on either of the two Nacras I've owned (both have sailed for 20+ hours straight with the rudders down). I can put the rudders anywhere between fully up and partially down and cleat them. What I also like is that if the Nacra system fails, it fails in a full up (cam cleat failure), or a limp and floating position (bunji breaks). My Hobie 18 with the old style aluminum cams would fail to release from the locked downward position. It is quite a revelation when you come back from a day sailing blazing through the surf only to realize you can't release your rudders.

I really like the idea of the rudder that sits in a box and can be raised vertically up and down. You could make the box pintle points so they would break free in the event of an impact. I suppose the bottom of the rudder could be shaped in a sloping fashion so that when you are beaching you could release the hold down mechanism and let them raise in their trunks as they start sliding on the bottom.

Mary,
There is one readily available. I just didn't want to say SuperCat. It is a wide rudder head fore and aft with the rudder through bolt in the middle of the rudder head casting. It supports the rudder well at all angles. There is a green rope for GO that pulls the rudder down and a red rope for STOP that pulls the rudder up. The tiller stays fixed at all times for easy steering. You don't have to put the tiller crossbar up over your head and try to steer while coming down the face of a wave at the same time. Call or write Tom Haberman at Aquarius-Sail.com. There are probably pictures of the rudder head system on a boat at the web site.
BTW, the Dotans rudder head does not support the rudder blade when the blade is in the up position. There is no rudder head supporting framework for the rudder blade aft of the rudder pivot pin. The Dotan rudder system is a deep water start rudder arrangement.
Bill

Every pivoting system--no matter how stout and no matter where the pivot is placed--suffers from weather helm when not fully down. This can get pretty dicey to control. The advantage of the "cassette" system mentioned above (where the rudder slides up and down vertically, like a daggar board) is that if the rudder is partially down, the helm remains balanced.

How about the one on the Escape Playcat, I have never sailed it, but it looks ideal for surf as it is always down.

Are there any independant rudder makers other than dotan.

Eric,
I think the daggerboard-style rudder in a cassette sounds like a good idea, but a couple of questions/problems would be: How can it kick back if you hit something? And how much weight would it add to the transom?

The new Farrier 33 has this style of rudder, and it also has an optional kickback rudder sleeve. But on that boat the kickback feature can work because the transom is angled back. I don't know this could be made to work on a plumb transom. It's interesting to think about, though.

try this. I should really find a patent attourney!

This is a really quick and dirty 3 minute sketch. By controling your shapes and using composites, I bet I could make these almost as light as current rudder systems. The controls wouldn't be any more complicated than what we have today.

hey willr,how did you modify your hobie system?