Downwind the spin throws up a giant blind spot and it's just a matter of time before someone gets hurt. There are a couple of "too close for comfort" stories going around with reliable witnesses in support.

Anyone for changing the right of way rules? I have it on good authority it can be done in the SI.

What do you want to accomplish with the new rule, and how do you think it would best be accomplished?

What is the current ROW rule?

All spinnakers have the right of way all the time! Yeah!

(actually, spinnaker foots got a lot higher and are easier to see under than they were in the early 2000's.)

all helicopters and planes must yield to spinnaker flying beach cats...

I was going to say that i don't have any problems seeing the waterline with my spin out...

If you want safe ,join a chess club. Pretty low accident rate.Or better yet PAY ATTENTION. How long have spinnakers been on boats? Nothing has changed.

What Pete is looking for is something like what they use in iceboating, where the windward boat has the right of way when going off the wind (freedom to bear away in a puff).

It is possible to change Rule 11 in the SIs, although I've never seen the language they use for iceboating.

I think it opens up a whole new can of worms - that doesn't need opening. I've seen (and been in) a few close calls, but usually it's between a boat going upwind and a boat going downwind.

This would not prevent port / starboard situations from occurring between upwind / downwind boats, which is where most of the danger comes from.

The "Problem" is the huge blind spot the spinnaker creates, which is even worse when sailing Uni, with no crew to look under it. I don't want to hit anyone, ever, and I often tack/gybe early to stay away from what could turn into a close call, even if that means going the -wrong way-for a 100 yards or so, but still there are times when you just cannot keep track of all the boats coming around the C mark and going upwind, while you are flying a hull with the spin up going downwind, especially when racing in mixed fleets.

There was that incident with the I 20 and Hobie Wave a while back, remember? Was that a "spinnaker induced" collision? I know I nearly took out an A cat last weekend, I only saw the top 1' of his mast over the top of my spin at the last second and was able to bear off to duck him. I don't know if he saw me coming or what he was going to do if I didn't. It could have been ugly! When it's blowing and the spray is flying, you cannot hear another boat hailing until they are nearly too close to miss.

I've always obeyed the golden rule when racing, "Do unto others as you would have them to unto you", or; "Payback's a Bitch!" so I don't intentionally push it, whether I'm the right of way boat going upwind or the spin boat coming down, a couple yards lost to a gybe or duck is not worth the time, money and mental anguish of a collision, not to mention you could be out for the rest of the regatta.

I would be in favor of some type of "Understanding" that when you are going upwind and you see a spin boat hauling butt in a huge puff comging down at you, you might want to assume he does NOT see you, and GTF Outa' the way!

I mean, that's just common sense, right? Unless you own a fiberglass repair company or an ambulance service...

One rule I like is :

"No non-spi boat shall ever share the course with a spi-boats."

That is just asking for trouble especially when a non-spi boat is snaking about trying to do the wildthing.

Wouter

I have no problem with other boats going downwind while I'm going downwind, usually, because we are going nearly the same speed and we can usually see each other. It's when I'm running downwind and some guy is coming upwind, in my fleet or any other fleet.

Or maybe there was no problem when he rounded, but then he tacks, I never see him. Maybe he never saw me coming, or he thinks it won't be close, then a puff comes along and I've got to bear off deep...all of a sudden, it's a problem and I'm busy trying to keep it upright, not looking out below, in the blind spot the spinnaker causes.

I've mentioned before, I'll mention again ... I have a blind spot REGARDLESS of the spinacker flying.

STAY CLEAR OF 733!!

It isn't just me. Some people with impeccable credentials are very concerned.

The greatest danger is deemed to be after a spin boat clears the windward offset, bears away, and sails across the course of boats still on a beat.

I'll bring this matter up with the F16 class, those of you interested can PM me and I'll keep you in the loop.

I'm with Wouter on this. And it's not just about spinnaker and non-spinnaker boats. It's more generally about fast boats and slow boats being on the same course. Especially downwind, where various speeds of boats and sail configurations are all sailing different angles downwind -- including some sailing straight downwind. And slow boats may see the collision coming, but they do not have the ability to get out of the way -- sort of like a manatee getting run over by a powerboat.

I respectfully disagree that it is possible to change RRS 11 with the SIs. RRS 86.1(b) states the specific rules that cannot be changed by SIs, and that refers to 86.1(a) which includes all Part 2 rules. And, RRS 11 is in Part 2.

I actually think this is a good thing, because Part 2 rules are really the fundamental rules that keep boats from going boom. As has been pointed out several times on this site, no one ever reads the SIs anyway, so trying to change this rule for a specific event (or series) could lead to a false sense of security, and more crashes caused by those who didn't know about the SI change.

There are enough other rules already, and besides common sense, those tell you to not hit another boat, no matter who has the right of way.

My rule of thumb has always been, if I can't see the other guy's eyes, he can't see me.

I've sailed on spinnaker boats, and they have certainly gotten better (higher off the water, etc.), but the onus is always on everyone to keep watch. If that doesn't work, avoid the collision, hail protest and figure it out later.

EDIT: Or, work to have the RRS changed...

Mike

Simple as that.

Mike is correct regarding the Rules in Part 2 - I was shooting from the hip, thinking that ice boats used a modified RRS. They do not.

They have their own "
Constitution and Racing Rules of the National Iceboat Authority". Those would not help in this situation, since the primary problem is the conflict between upwind / downwind boats.

And still I remember there was one very experienced ice boater killed not too long ago when two of them came together at speed...

Be careful out there, and -never- assume the other guy see's you coming.

In that case, the offset mark was set wrong!
The offset mark was introduced because of the concerns voiced in this thread. You should be able to bear off after the offset and not encounter any upwind boats until after your gybe.

that assumes you don't grossly overstand the left layline like some of us commonly do

The answer is: back to triangle courses. Or any non up-down course. It is also more fun.

Gentlemen,

There are TWO basic rules in the RRS that supersede all other rules:

1) Competitors are required to render ANY and ALL Assistence needed to anyone (or vessel) in distress!!!

2) ALL COLLISONS are to be avoided !!!!

Any questions .... anyone????

Mike/Brucat is quite correct in his interpitation of the rules and his philosophy towards the rules ... no matter who THINKS they have the "Right of Way" in the final analysis a "Captain's" responsibility is .... SAFETY!!!!! Not to win or even finish the race.

FIRST ... LAST ... ALWAYS SAFETY !!!!!

So ... if you are the "RoW" vessel, avoid the collison, hail "Protest" ... and if they do not do their penalty, bring them in front of the "Protest Committee" ... remember the "RoW" vessel gets to determine what is "Too Close" ....

Harry

how about a REALLY REALLY offset mark!

That's would then be "B mark".

No, and no it's not.

you didn't watch race 2 of the Americas cup then?

This is entirely correct. I was about to say the same thing until I came across this post. I'm not going to quote further, but I agree with everything else Mike said as well.

If you really, really want to change the basic right-of-way rules, you could claim you are testing proposed rule changes under RRS 86.3, but then US SAILING limits you to local races unless you get their prior written permission for each event (and other restrictions apply).

Regards,
Eric
US SAILING Certified Judge,
Member Area D Appeals Committee

Also,

You can't just change it for the F16's and then expect all the other classes that share the same race course to abide by your rules. You can't have different classes of boats using different right of way rules on the same body of water at the same time. THATS dangerous.

I thought he was talking about any spinnaker boats, not just F16's?

The "avoid collision at all costs" should cover it though.

that comment was in regards to:



this.

One of the main reasons that the weather (or offset) mark is a dangerous place with spinnaker boats is that the crews are so busy hoisting the kite and adjusting things, they may be more likely to take their eyes off the road.

While this won't fix all the problems, one major help here is to have a separate (longer) weather mark (and offset) for the spinnaker boats. Won't help much in a 50-boat spinnaker fleet, but will help a ton in mixed fleets.

There are other issues that can happen elsewhere on the course that cannot be easily addressed with rule changes. The primary one is spinnaker boats on the edge of control when it's blowing like stink. They have to bear off (a lot sometimes), which can be unexpected for boats going upwind.

Anyway, I'm tired but my point is that I emphasize with this issue, and didn't want to sound preachy in my prior post. But, as others have mentioned, the worst thing on a course (for all of us) is any boat that is sailing around, knowing that they can't see. At that point, snuff the spinnaker, or buy a boat that you can actually control.

Mike

The other thing Ice Boats have experimented with is having Darling marks on the course.Prevents boats from rounding weather mark and gybing right away onto starboard.Also prevents boats from coming in right on the port tack layline,or coming in hot on the starboard layline downwind.

That's what an offset mark is - and we already have them......

Hi group,
Rules are rules, and when you change them I think that alone can cause trouble-Geeze in this regatta do I yield or not? You can either sail a triangle that sometimes turns into a simple drag race, or follow the rules and yield,change course, drop the spin, whatever it takes to keep clear of a boat that has rights. Common sense also rules-if you are in last place in your class and six spin boats are screaming into the mark-maybe the prudent thing to do is swing a little wide.Been there done that while snaking about trying to figure that wild thing out.
Regards to all.
Ken

No, Darling marks are not just offset marks.The weather Darling mark is placed down wind and to the right (looking upwind) of the weather mark.The leeward darling is placed upwind and to the left of the leeward mark.You are not allowed to sail between the mark(called turning bouy) and darling mark.
Keep in mind Ice boats are going 40-70 M.P.H.,when you have a collision you are losing more then just gelcoat.

so the darling marks are basically offset marks but on the approach to the mark - not on the departure side?

The way I'm reading it - which may be wrong, wouldn't that eliminate the port layline approach to the windward mark?

Yes but they acomplish two thinks.By always passing the darling marks on the left,you avoid having boats crash in on the laylines,and you also avoid having boats tack or gybe after rounding a mark.
Not suggesting this for soft water sailing (probably too much work for race commitee),but it really avoids head on collisions,especially important when sailing ice boat angles.

how about someone who port tacks the layline to the windward mark and who is ducking the left side darling mark with a windward spinnaker boat rounding it?

Same situation happens just at a different mark.

yeah, I know...
This sport isn't completely 100% safe and never will be. As much as anyone messes with the windward mark- with offsets, "pre" offsets before the mark there is still the rest of the course. Driving at spring fever required a lot of situational awareness. It only takes one head in the boat moment dealing with a fouled jib sheet/downhaul/rotator to lose that awareness. I still have those moments of "crap, I just gybed and I am not sure I really checked my 6 o'clock."
anyway... we all gotta trust each other and maintain as much situational awareness as possible.

as a guy who races only a few times a year (and have only skippered 1 time)... it might be beneficial to have a "newbee skippers meeting" pre or post the regular skippers meetings at events to go over some rules/situations to be esp on the look out for. I admit i know few only a few rules, and much of what was said here is over my head...

at spring fever (not sure if they always do this) they had a system wherein if you were somewhat new/not completely comfy then you could put a flag on your boat so people would understand that and give them a little more room or know that they might need some assistance. I like that.
Seems like one of the TVS teams needed one since one of them fouled us 3 times in one race!

Hahah, kinda like riding the little yellow school bus (at the race)! i would need 2 flags :P

I think its a good idea, because in a race.. i would never want my lack of knowledge/exp to be a factor in anyone else's race... or more importantly safety... and i know locally at least there are several others with even less experience than myself in every race

One of the missions of TVS is to bring younger, more inexperienced teams into the fold and help them get some more tiller time and give them the support they need to be competitive. So yes, its likely that one of them could have fouled you - but if they did their turns then there's no issue.

I didn't really consider that they were inexperienced. I would have made a bigger deal (from an educational POV) if I had thought so- I kind of thought they were just being pricks actually . They didn't do any turns (though at one point I figured we came really close to fouling them back so I yelled out- "that makes us even" for at least one
If I feel that I might have fouled someone during a race but not clearly I always try to find that boat after the finish to check to see what their interpretation was from a personal learning perspective.

If you are fouled and the offending party does not do their turns then you are obligated to file a protest IMO.


Or at least go up to them after the race and talk to them about it to ask them why they obviously felt that they didn't foul you.

How does one really know if the offender did their turns? You're not required to do them immediately .... only before you complete the race. Right?

You would have two boats basically going the same heading,so no threat there of a head on collision.

In match racing you're supposed to do them before you finish. In fleet racing you're supposed to do them as soon as safely possible IIRC.

right
I had a situation at midwinters where I thought I clearly fouled jmac and so we did our turns before finishing. We also got fouled during the race by someone else. We did our turns then went to jmac after and he didn't seem to think we did (or didn't care). I didn't press the issue with the other boat. We were on starboard with the spin, they on port and we saw them and we both crash gybed basically. They thought they had started their gybe in time to allow us to pass. I guess we could have pressed it but I didn't care in the end.

undecided- I didn't know that... so I suppose we didn't do it correctly. Hell, I am not even sure we did the turn correctly
coming to the leeward mark on port. gybed to starboard, headed up, tacked and the went to the mark on starboard

Dont take my word as gospel please. I just take the safe approach because I don't really know.

Doing them ASAP == before the finish so I've got all bases covered.

When you do your turns you should always call over to a boat in the vicinity to witness them.

In fleet racing, the above language governs. ASAP means ASAP, not when it is convenient to do so.

Match racing is completely different.

yeah I always thought that the words "as soon as possible" were a poor choice in this rule.

My manager seriously flies off the handle when anyone uses that term since is sooo subjective.

what dictates if its a 1 turn or 2 turn penalty?

whats the penalty for secretly attaching someones catamaran to a cinder-block?

SIs should state it- if I am not mistaken the rules say 2 turns (720) but most SIs change that to 1 turn (360).. am I wrong?

To all the "confused" people:

I've been as guilty of this as anyone, but I've been trying to turn a new leaf. Before guessing what the RRS says and typing an opinion here, open the book and read it. When posting here, be sure to include the rule number, it will help everyone. Hint: the RRS is also available (free) online on several sites (USSA, ISAF).

At least in my case, when I don't do this, I have often found myself "misremembering" the RRS, which can lead to some embarrasing statements. Any time you open the rule book, it either teaches you something or reinforces something, both of which will help you tremendously on the water when you have no time to be looking things up.

Paraphrasing, but basically, the default rule of 44.1 is, for any violations of Part 2, two turns. Hit a mark, one turn (yes, there are exceptions, look them up).

PTP is right, SIs can (and often do) change the requirements given in RRS 44.1 and 44.2. Most often for cat regattas, we use one-turn for everything.

Here's the most creative change that I've seen (this was for a big-boat regatta):

"RRS 44.1 and 44.2 are changed so that, except for infringements of Part 2 that occur within the zone of a rounding mark or finishing mark only one turn, including one tack and one gybe, is required."

Hope this helps.

Mike

Yes and no. There is no rule that requires a boat to protest. However, the preamble to the rules says:

Although you are not compelled to protest, you are expected to.



Wrong. As mbounds already pointed out, (in fleet racing) the penalty turn(s) must be taken as soon as possible - not when convenient.


It sounds like:
1) you didn't do your turn(s) "as soon as possible", which is incorrect
2) you did one turn - not two. This is not correct according to the rules, unless the Sailing Instructions changed the penalty (which they often do).
3) the turn you describe DOES satisfy the requirement of "one tack and one gybe in the same direction". A penalty turn does not have to be a complete 360 degrees.


No. ASAP means immediately after the incident, not anytime before the finish. See the quote below:




Well, "as soon as possible" is less problematic than the term "promptly" (which occurs later in the rule). In either case, substitute the phrase "without delay" to better interpret rule 44.2.


The penalty for breaking a rule of Part 2 ("When Boats Meet") when racing is two turns - unless the SI's specify differently. The penalty for breaking rule 31 ("Touching A Mark") is one turn. Attaching a cinder-block to someone else's boat would constitute a breach of rule 2 ("Fair Sailing"), and the penalty would be DNE (disqualification non-excludable). If the Protest Committee felt it constituted a "gross breach of sportsmanship", then you might wind up facing greater penalties.

I hope that helps,
Eric
US Sailing Certified Judge
Member, Area D Appeals Committee

It is because you have to watch for less traffic. Fun factor is debatable of course. But reaching remains me, why I like and sail cats and not monos.

Cheers,

Klaus

Isotope:


Answer me this.

If I do my turned "As soon as possible" ... how is that not in the set of timepoints in the superset of "before the finish".

I can't think of any scenario in which doing a turn as soon as you are able to is not before you finish unless you foul someone AT the finish line.

You misunderstood what I wrote.

Eric,

thank you for a concise and easy to follow interpretation of the rules.

Your summary was/is very helpful!

Getting back to the original topic,
A boat is expected to maintain a lookout at all times, even when setting a spinnaker. Lapses of attention can be hazardous anywhere on the course.

I don't quite follow that logic, at least for catamarans. Spinnaker cats generally sail much deeper than sloop and uni-rigs. If different types of catamarans rounded the same mark, the spinnaker boats would tend to sail below the non-spins. After that, things are not really different than anywhere on the downwind leg. What am I missing?

This is why boats sailing downwind in heavy air jealously guard their escape lane to leeward. If another boat occupies that lane, the windward boat will often gybe away. This holds true for non-spin boats as well - and even monohulls that sail hot angles downwind. I don't think any rule changes are needed.

Absolutely! Sailing blind is an invitation to disaster. Keep a good lookout; know what boats are nearby; and make a plan to keep clear before the boats actually meet.

Regards,
Eric

\
Great data, thanks Eric.
of course my "cinder-block" was a joke, but it certainly would be a "gross breach of sportsmanship" (IMHO)

Thanks, - here is a link
http://www.sailing.org/20348.php

Fwiw, my intentions in starting this thread was to prevent someone getting a punctured lung from a spin pole.

I had a coach who gave us some idea.....

If you have not started to take action to take your pen in the time it takes you to look at the mainsail; look upwind and down, tell the crew and then start; you are in danger of not being quick enough. (this was for Ollies / worlds sailing).

It essentially menas you have time to look for a place to do the turn adn then DO IT NOW. More than 10 seconds to start doing something and you MIGHT get a DSQ.

Well, the primary reason for the longer mark is to fix timing issues (target times for the various speed boats in a mixed-class event), so that the slower boats don't have to do a one-lap race (exaggerating, but you get the idea). But, it has the added advantage of reducing the number of boats rounding the weather mark with spinnaker boats. As you and I pointed out, this can't fix all the problems, but in my experience, it helps a lot.

Mike

Yes, quite possibly I misunderstood your statement. Perhaps it is the programmer in me. I read "==" as the identity operator. So, while doing a turn before the finish is a necessary condition for exoneration, it is not a sufficient condition. In other words the timepoints encompassed by, "as soon as possible" is a subset of "before finishing", but the two are not identity sets. Therefore "doing them ASAP" is not the same as "before the finish".

If you meant "I did the penalty ASAP", then you are ok. If you meant "I did the penalty before the finish", then you are not. I read your statement as the second.

Technically, all penalties taken under Rule 44.2 must occur before finishing. If you break a rule of Part 2, or rule 28.1, or rule 31 after finishing while still racing, you may take a penalty or correct the error - after which you must "finish" again.

In fleet racing, it doesn't make sense to talk about taking a penalty "before the finish". RRS 44.2 requires that the turn(s) take place "as soon after the incident as possible".

Regards,
Eric

Pete, as I mentioned in a prior post, I emphasize with you and agree that there are sometimes some crazy situations, but as others have pointed out, rules can't prevent everything, and the rules in place limit how we can change them.

Do you have a suggestion for a better rule, and can you work it through the system for a change? While it may seem onerous, the system in place is great, because it requires lots of people to review and think about suggested changes, which often brings out (and hopefully prevents) unintended consequences.


Mike

I think the "problem" with the "Leeward boat has right of way" rule here is, the boat coming upwind (the leeward boat, or ROW) has the best view of what's going on, as he's looking upwind in the first place and he's not got a big spinnaker blocking his view.

The 'burdened boat' is coming downwind with the spin up, blocking at least part of his downwind view, and the skipper is most likely looking upwind for a puff to chase, not always looking downwind for traffic.

If the ROW boat was at one time well clear, but then tacks, and the burdened boat never see's him tack, and now the ROW is in the spinnaker blind spot, well, it can get very interesting, very quickly.

I know when I'm the ROW boat, going upwind, I never assume the spin guy coming down sees me, and I'll gladly tack to get out of his way...more so if it's blowing and he's hauling butt. I don't want to end up "Dead Right".

I think it goes to the "avoid a collision at all costs" rule.

Nice post! It asks a key question and gets us back on the original topic. I'm curious to see what proposals come out of it. Personally, I am skeptical how a rule change can help the problem of not keeping a good lookout, but I'm willing to be proven wrong.

Regards,
Eric

Simply change it to say, when two boats meet and one is coming downwind under spinnaker, and the other is going upwind with only a mainsail and/or jib, the spinnker flying boat has the right of way.

Or use the bumper sticker version:

"Tack now, or risk certain death"

I don't really see this as a spinnaker issue, or even a catamaran issue, since the same problems exist with jibs and on monohulls. The problem seems to be the speeds involved - it's possible to get in trouble fast. At higher speeds, you need to look and plan farther ahead.


A boat must keep a good lookout, spinnaker or no. If the skipper ignores downwind traffic to watch upwind puffs, then he's likely to get into trouble no matter what the rules say.


If a windward (let's assume port tack) boat sees a leeward port tack boat coming upwind disappear behind his spinnaker, he needs to watch for it to appear again. If it doesn't, he's got to actively look to see where it went. If one has to periodically round down and/or slack the chute to keep an eye on leeward boats, then that's what one must do.


That's wise. At the point where you have reasonable apprehension of contact if you don't take avoiding action - take it (see ISAF Case 50). Then protest. Rule 14 (and common sense) require you to attempt to avoid contact.


Well, Rule 14 doesn't say "at all costs". It says "A boat shall avoid contact with another boat if reasonably possible". Watch out for other boats, plan ahead, and avoid contact reasonably.

Regards,
Eric

I believe safety should win out. It is not physically possible to keep a good lookout on a spin boat in all cases as there is a blind spot. A boat going to weather has much better visibility; hence it should carry most of the burden.

Spinnaker has the right of way should be the rule, imo.

Further, in the interest of safety, spin and non-spin boats should be on different courses whenever possible.

What if the boats are on opposite tacks? What if the boat sailing downwind is flying a genoa or a gennaker? What if the boat flying a spinnaker is sailing on a reach instead of downwind? What if the boat not flying a spinnaker is sailing on a reach instead of upwind? What covers the case of a boat sailing downwind on a converging course but is obscured by the spinnaker?

Picture this scenerio: Three boats A, B, and C. A is sailing upwind under main and jib. B and C are sailing downwind on the same tack towards A. B is to leeward of C and not flying a spinnaker. C is to windard and is flying a spinnaker. Under this suggested rule, A has right-of-way over B. B has right-of-way over C. C has right-of-way over A. When they converge, who has to give room to whom?

I think a boat sailing upwind would likely have difficulty understanding the rules if right-of-way changed depending on the sails the other boat was using.

I wouldn't characterize this change as "simple".

Regards,
Eric

I agree. Rule 1 "Safety" and Rule 14 "Avoiding Contact" are there for that purpose.


I disagree. No matter what shape or how opaque your sails are, you are still required to keep a good lookout. Just as when driving a car, if you have a blind spot, you need to look around it frequently enough to keep track of traffic. If you can't watch where you're going, you should sail (or drive) something else.


I disagree. This rationale degenerates into worst lookout gets right-of-way. I don't think that's the right spirit to sail under. If you sail a boat with a bigger blind spot, you should accept the greater effort to look around it.


Can you suggest a wording for that rule? I have trouble seeing how it would work.


I don't understand. How is an encounter between a spin boat going downwind meeting a non-spin boat going upwind any different than a spin boat going downwind meeting a spin boat going upwind?

Regards,
Eric

Well then, to keep it "Simple", change it to 'any spinnaker boat has right of way', period. Then in your scenario, C has right of way over both A and B, and A had just better get out of the way and B can tell A he's got to have room to keep clear of C.

I don't know the history of when and why the "Leeward boat has right of way" rule was written, but I'm guessing whom ever wrote it never envisioned a fleet of spinnaker cats coming downwind at nearly 20 knots...while one boat is going upwind yelling he's got "rights", as if the spin boats can hear him anyway, or can do anything about it, when the puff is on.

Pete,

So you wish to advocate that just because you have a spinnacker on the boat that gives you the right to sail BLINDLY downwind .... OUT OF CONTROL .... ignoring your responsibility to maintain a proper lookout and to sail with-in control on the race course.

Can I assume that you also advocate the whomever has the fastest, nastiest sportscar does not have to obey the traffic laws while on the highway such as "Traffic Lights", "Stop" signs etc etc

What gives you the right to run over my niece and I on my TheMightyHobie18 when we are on the same race course and have a windward/leeward crossing w/ me being the leeward vessel????

LEARN the (current)RULES .... and sail safely as not to place ANYONE IN DANGER ... NO ONE on your vessel or others!!!!

Thad: The rule about "penalty turns" was at one time that you could wait until just before finishing to do the penalty turns .... BUT that was changed YEARS ago (10-+15yrs????) ... then it was that the penalty turns had to be done BEFORE the next mark rounding (same leg as the foul occured on) .... NOW it's at the first "SAFE" apportunity immediately after the foul (if someone on your vessel is hurt or your vessel is needs repair, you may take corrective actions first ... but before contiueing racing you must complete your penalty)

Eric: I always enjoy your posts .... hopefully someday my knowledge will come close to yours

Harry

PS: Everytime I hear of a "Racing Rules Seminar" being conducted I try to attend ... usually one or more per year!!!! I SUGGEST that everyone else should consider doing the same ... if you wish to play SAFELY in this game!!!!!

Harry:

I think you'll find that I was the one who said that you were supposed to do your circles as soon as possible.

Dear lord.

Thad,

I was just trying to prove that there was a time when you were correct about waiting to do "penalty turns" just before the finish of a race .... of course I was young and frisky then and had no grey hairs in my beard or on my head back then !!!!!

You were maybe sailing a OPTI at Tred Avon YC then too .....

I have trouble (sometimes) keeping the rule changes straight over the years .... MAST ABEAM .... Hahaha

Harry

I think giving absolute right-of-way to "any spinnaker boat" will be just as problematic. Imagine two boats sailing downwind. One is clear ahead and not flying a spinnaker. The other is clear astern with chute up. Do you really want to give right-of-way to the astern boat? What about two boats on opposite tacks going downwind? Which one has right-of-way? The starboard boat or the spinnaker boat?


Rule 11 "ON THE SAME TACK, OVERLAPPED" derives from the IRPCS, which has roots back to before spinnakers existed and before catamarans were known, so yes, spinnaker catamarans were not envisioned. The basic premise is that the windward boat is most likely more maneuverable, given that the leeward boat may be blanketed.

If your fleet of spin-cats is sailing downwind towards one lone upwind boat... sail around him. It shouldn't be much more difficult than sailing around an anchored committee boat.

If visibility and escape are the problems, then what about a windward cat (flying a spinnaker) with a leeward cat (also flying a spinnaker) in his blind spot? Which one gets right-of-way? How is this situation any different if the leeward boat isn't flying a chute? Why should the rules be different?

No amount of fiddling with right-of-way is going to remove a boat's responsibility for maintaining a lookout. You must know what's in front of you, and plan for how to keep from hitting it.

Regards,
Eric

If you ever see another boat when you are out sailing- racing or not- ask yourself who has rights whether they are 2 boat lengths away or 20. You will learn the rules. I always have to think about that when running downwind with the spin because which tack you are on wins out first, windward leeward only when two boats are on the same tack.
My concern is always: "crap, should I go above and hope I don't hit by a puff or go low and slow just to get out of the way." Same thing with overtaking other boats downwind.


I agree with the concern that started this thread- a spin boat who doesn't see you and you don't see them has potential for death at the speeds we are talking about. I think we all get lucky- especially when it is blowing because no matter how hard you try you still might miss something- and then the other boat misses you and BOOM... more than money at issue. Although I agree with the thought behind the thread, changing stuff will probably just confuse things more

Eric

Has there ever been a case where someone's published words... to the effect that "I have a blind spot and have difficulty keeping a proper lookout with my spinaker up" been used against them in a protest hearing.

EG... That was bozo billy as the give way boat... he doesn't know the rules and has stated that he can't see around his spinaker anyway ... therefore... as the ROW boat... I judged that in my cross with him that he fouled me ...and worried about a collision, I took action to avoid a collision. I hailed protest... perhaps this was a lot sooner then I might have if olympic sailor X was the give way boat but I had no evidence that bozo billy was following the rules of the road and allowing my right of way. I had no choice!

Mark

Yeah, with the way the rule is today, just about any boat coming upwind could claim he thought he was about to be run over by any nearby spinnaker boat coming downwind hot.

Yell "Protest" and now the guy's got to snuff the chute and do a circle or two...That's a great way to make up for a bad start and hose the guys coming down on you!

I'm thinking this rule might need to be looked at in detail and perhaps updated for today's newer, faster, asym spin boats. I would think some of the faster Mono's with Asym. spins might have this same problem, what do the Melges guys think? I don't go to Sailing Anarchy, ever, but if some of you do, can you ask them if it's ever been a problem?

By your logic, if I buy a car with a 10" windshield, it's other people's responsibility to stay out of my blind spot?

I do agree that spin and non-spin should be on different courses if at all possible for two reasons:

1: more races - not waiting for non-spins to finish

2: at least the skippers of spin boats understand the limitations of driving downwind. People who do not regularly sail with a spinnaker might not understand the danger of getting in either the blind spot or forcing a spin boat to go over you downwind. That a recipe for disaster.


Ask Jake about Charleston, He knows the danger of this situation all too well.

>>>By your logic, if I buy a car with a 10" windshield, it's other people's responsibility to stay out of my blind spot?<<<


Jake, if everyone had the same 10" windshield, the driving laws might have to change, for safety, not a competitive advantage, that's all we are saying.

I don't know of an authoritative source that matches that scenerio exactly, but here are some that are instructive:

In this case, a right-of-way (ROW) boat was disqualified under rule 14 because she could have reasonably avoided contact if she had kept a good lookout. The boats were keelboats with genoas rather than catamarans with spinnakers, but both were in each other's blind spots and their bowmen were busy handling sails. I think this case translates pretty well and clearly indicates that a cat under spin is still responsible for knowing what's in front of her - whether she has right-of-way or not.

The rules do not excuse poor seamanship. You are responsible for maintaining control of your boat.

When you can't see what might be behind an obstruction, it is your duty to anticipate the appearance of a ROW boat. It is not their job to expect you.

A ROW boat is not required to take avoiding action until it is clear that the give-way (GW) boat is not. However, in many instances that may be too late. Therefore, a ROW boat is permitted to take avoiding action when she has a "genuine and reasonable apprehension of collision". If she does, then the GW boat breaks a rule. A 16-18ft catamaran under spinnaker going 20kts sails roughly 2 boat-lengths per second. If you assume that a ROW boat needs 5 seconds to execute an avoiding maneuver (such as tacking), then it is reasonable if she acts when the GW boat is 10 boatlengths away. The spin-boat in question would then have broken rule 10 or 11 (whichever applied).

I hope that helps,
Eric

can you imagine trying to keep out of the way of a spinnaker boat - they steer all over the place!

Not gonna happen, it ain't broken so don't try and fix it.

even if you have right of way with your kite up, you are still going to have to steer a straight course and keep a look-out to allow the upwind sailors to stay out of your way.

If the boat going to windward with right-of-way has a "genuine and reasonable apprehension of collision" with the downwind give-way boat and she takes avoiding action, then yes, the boat under spin breaks a rule. If her apprehension is not genuine, or reasonable, or if she does not take avoiding action (and there was no contact), then the GW boat does not.

I think the existing rules are just fine and spinnaker-boat sailors simply need to own up to their obligations. I've served at Melges 24 National and North American Championships as both Race Committee and as Judge and seen them screaming downwind in 20-30kts breeze. I never heard one of them complain about the rules - not even when we disqualified a port-tack boat under spinnaker for contacting a starboard-tack boat going upwind.


Sorry, I'm not buying this argument. You've proposed unconditional right-of-way (superceding rules 10, 11, and 12) for any boat flying a spinnaker over all boats that are not. You have not proposed any change for when two boats that are both flying a spinnaker meet. That is directly analagous to proposing that car with a 10" windshield have unconditional right-of-way over a car with a full-size windshield - even at an intersection when the normal car has a green light.

<Sarcasm alert on>
I sail a sloop-rig cat (no spinnaker) and I've never had any problem sharing a racecourse with spin-cats. They're fun to watch and look like a blast to sail. Until this thread, however, I've never realized how dangerous spin-cats are - what with that big "blind spot" and all. Obviously, for the sake of safety a rule change is required. Therefore I propose this simple new rule that will solve the problem without impacting the game or conflicting with existing rule application:
"Spinnakers on catamarans are not allowed."

Oh, and cars with 10" windshields should be outlawed too.
<Sarcasm alert off>

Sincerely,
Eric

I disagree. First of all, the spin boats may not necessarily finish first. The non-spins might start first, they might be sailing a shorter course, or they might be sailing fewer legs. Secondly, nothing compels RC to wait for boats of another class to finish before starting you again. If you're sitting around waiting for a start, complain about Race Committee, not about other boats sharing the course.

This is also a specious arugument. It's your responsibility to keep clear of leeward boats (when windward) or starboard-tack boats (when on port tack) - regardless of their sailplan. It's your job to watch your blind spot, and protect your escape lane - not theirs. They don't "force you to go over them" - you simply didn't plan ahead. If there's danger in these situations, it's because the give-way boat under spinnaker failed to keep a good lookout, failed to anticipate an encounter, or failed to keep under control.

Sincerely,
Eric

I sail a crewed spin boat and have no issue with going downhill on a crowded course and my head is on a swivel. Although those guys on suicide port coming uphill can be annoying especially when they are yelling "close hauled keep clear", but it is fun to see the reaction when you say... 'starboard'.

Yes there are those folks that believe a close hauled boat is the ROW boat over one going downwind.

Ok, i am ignorant, but trying to learn.. downloaded the RSS and will put it in my library... but

I know Starboard and Leerward have rights, but downwind has rights over upwind?

Scott,

As you read and learn the Racing Rules of Sailing (RRS's) you will learn that there are different levels to determining which vessel has the Right of Way (RoW) or is the Burdon Vessel/Giveway Vessel, OK???

First Level: Starboard Tack as rightaway over a Port Tack Vessel

Now if both vessels are on the same tack you move onto the second level to determine who has the rightaway

Second Level: A windward vessel (upwind) shall keep clear of a leaward vessel (downwind). Usually this situation developes between a vessel headed "down" the course w/ a vessel "beating up" the course.

OK???

(Think of it a Poker ... both players have a pair of 10's ... whom has the highest card next card in their hand determines who wins the hand ... you have a "Jack" ... but I have a "King" ... I win ...)

Harry

In the scenerio David describes, the boat going downwind is on starboard tack and the boat sailing upwind is on port tack. Because they are on opposite tacks, rule 10 applies and rule 11 does not. Some sailors mistakenly think that whenever they are sailing upwind, they are leeward boat and have right-of-way when in this case, they do not.

I hope that helps,
Eric

While it may be convenient to think of the rules as a hierarchy, they are not. The conditions when each of rules 10, 11, and 12 apply are mutually exclusive.

Rule 10 applies between boats on opposite tacks.
Rule 11 applies between boats on the same tack that are overlapped.
Rule 12 applies between boats on the same tack that are not overlapped.

I hope that helps,
Eric

Gotcha, thanks.. that is what i thought, there is no upwind downwind rule, just in this (Ding's) situation the upwind boat thought she had the ROW when he was wrong for several reasons (on port tack, and being closed hauled means nothing as far as ROW is concerned)

That being said Port always yields to Starboard Leeward or not.

p.s. Eric If you ever want to sail on one of those "fun" spin boats, let me know. You'd be more than welcome on mine.

Eric has some excellent posts, especially number 208480 on Page 9 (too long to quote)…

I also agree that putting spin boats on their own course, with their own rules still won’t solve everything, there will always be boats coming upwind (even in the same class). For boats of vastly different performance (i.e. Waves vs. I20s), it helps, but most clubs don’t have the resources to pull this off, especially for the turnout we’ve been getting over the past few years.

As for getting more races in, that’s a completely different race management topic, and there are all sorts of ways to make that happen, even on a shared course. Most effective is a separate finish line.

Guys, we’re talking about at most, 20-30 spinnaker boats on a course at one time. What do you think it’s like (some of you know) at a 100+ spinnaker boat event (EU). I don’t hear them complaining, so it must be manageable under the current rules?

Jake, do you have something against Hummer H3s? They have 10” windows (I once sailed with a girl who had one, she said it was like driving a coffin)…

Melges 24s “screaming” downwind (or on any other point of sail)… now THAT’S funny! And yes, I’ve been there, the only scary thing is the mass they carry if they collide at those “high” speeds…

Mike

Eric,

Agreed .... but it's just the way I find it easier to mentally check-off the rules to determine if I have the right-of-way or not .....

I would describe it more of a "Family Tree" or a "Yes-No/If-Then" type diagram as I mentally analyze the situation to determine which rule does apply.

But everyone analyzies problems differently even if they arrive at the same conclusion ...

Now there is several other solutions to this issue ....

1) Dump the chute .... you may go swimming ... but CeLaVie'

2) I have a beautiful but huge chute for my P-19MX that when up leaves no visiblity (and I do mean none!!!)to leaward when flying ... and guess what .... I WILL NOT RACE MY P-19MX around a closed course w/ that spinnacker !!!!

To quote that famous San Fransico Detective Harry (Dirty Harry) Callahan, "a man must know his limitations" .....

I know that I'm just not that good if conditions get hairy... and I will not hurt anyone else .... especially just for a sailboat race ....

Harry

Except when a port tack boat is entitled to mark room from a stbd tack boat; they are exonerated for making the stbd boat give way per Rule 18.5.

That situation happens frequently at the left-hand (looking upwind) gate mark.

Yep, and a surprising number old salts still don't get that.

Good point Matt. Also applies at downwind finishes.

Mike

But room at the mark and becoming the ROW boat are 2 different things.Port gets room not rights.

Thanks for the offer! I'd love to hitch a ride on a spinnaker cat if and when the opportunity arises. I might get the chance to race at the Keowee Cup (if Joleen will excuse me from RC) and I always enjoy OPB sailing.

Regards,
Eric

Awww,

Just because they're keelboats doesn't mean they can't move. At CRW last weekend, I saw a TP-52 doing 20kts downwind in 15kts breeze (of course, their spinnaker was bigger than a whole fleet of F-18s combined). Melges 24's carry a big asymmetric spin and they'll plane faster than the wind downwind. After watching them skip across the waves with 5 guys all standing at the transom, I have great respect for the boats and their sailors. When 15 of them meet at the leeward gate at the same time (5 rounding, 5 broaching, and the others trying madly to keep clear) it's quite a spectacle. At one point, I saw a boat lose it on the douse, broach, and round up (still broaching) right in front of another M-24. I was sure that the second boat was going down too, but somehow they managed to steer up hard, sail around the sideways boat, bear back down, douse, and make it through the gate without losing control in 25kts of wind. It was the most amazing display of seamanship I've ever witnessed.

Regards,
Eric

Well, if you're easily impressed by the 24s, you should see the 32s when it's blowing 18+ in the ocean.

Not to mention PUMA (VOR boat). That thing is scary fast, especially for its size...

Mike

There were two Melges 32s on my course at CRW, but they were in PHRF C class and didn't come to my mark. I saw the IRC and PHRF A divisions. The RP-52 was pretty impressive, as was the Farr 60 that came last year.
Regards,
Eric

Oh Ya ... there is nothing better then running down the Chesapeake Bay in the NASS Race in September chasing down the PHRF A0 boats like ZARRAFRA or DONNYBROOK in +20knts of breeze!!!!! I call it "the mice among the elephants" and the elephants are FAST!!!!

A.Kirby, Chris Allen along w/ several others on I/N20's have actually managed to make up the PHRF A0's 10min head start and pass them .... then it's run faster you fool, faster, faster ....

I was on TripleThreat(43'Tri) the year she started 5mins behind the PHRF A0 class ... ran down ZARRAFRA, climbed over ZARRAFRA's HUGE stern wake, and passed ZARRAFRA .... spray everywhere .... exciting!!!! Max boat speed was +22knts!!!! ... but we never caught DONNYBROOK .... updated Santa Cruz77 w/ a fantastic crew on board!!!!!

I say Todd .... Todd I say ... you've been there .... and on TripleThreat also ... ain't it a HOOT!!!!!

And .... no matter how small you are ... if you are the Right-a-Way Vessel, the PHRF A0 boats follow the rules ....

Learn the RRS's .... Know the RRS's .... follow the RRS's!!!!

Harry

I don't follow you. When you enter the 3 boat length circle on port at the left gate (looking upwind) you have inside overlap on starboard and are the right of way boat at that time.

I agree with Dave Ingram - a suprising number of old salts don't understand this and when you bellow 'room' that start hollering 'starboard', then 'protest'.