In my opinion the prindle setup is the best, once you modify it. Yes, the blades are a bitch when swept back, but there is alot of aluminim on the castings.

If you take the pull down, and pull up lines out of the rudder arm, and instead run them to a turning block over the tops of the transoms, you can rig a remote release and remote pull down that can be operated from both sides of the boat. And, best of all, you still have an emergency release should you hit sand.

So, if a blade kicks up, you can pull a line and lock it back down again. The prindle system works on a spring loaded notch that automatically locks in when the blade pulls down.

I had this setup on my p19, and it worked well in our area where we have a ton of weed. Without moving, I could release, dump weed, and pull back down again in 2 seconds.

I have tried this with other systems, and it does not work. Moving arm systems are very hard to remote because you have to pull the arms back and down. Forget it!!!

After breaking 3 ##$@@ blades on my tornado this summer, I am throwing the crap moving arm system away and installing a prindle rudder set. I want to be able to release and re-engage my rudders as needed, not when I can crawl across the boat and play with lifting the rudder arms, etc.

One last point. You almost always have to adjust the rake of the rudders when you transplant rudders. Be carful to make up some templates that show the exact rake of the existing rudders, before you take off the old set. When adding the new set, you will have to block out either the upper or lower gudeon, an align the to gudeons so that they are at exactly the same angle.

The best setup for each boat is not necessarily the same. The Tornado and A cat are not exactly beach cats - they are racing cats.

The Tornado system is designed to be light and is far from being the best for a beach cat. If you can, weight the Tornado parts after removing them from the boat and then compare weights with the Prindle parts.

But if you use the Tornado as a beach cat instead of racing, then the modification makes perfect sense.

Cheers,

One of the simplest rudder systems is the standard NACRA setup.
NO screws, cams, springs, or latches to adjust.
Just a single line to pull the rudder down and secure it in an ordinary clam cleat.
You can use either a bungee or another line to pull the rudder up. ( I preferred the second line)
The system can be easily modified to allow a single line to pull up (or down) both rudder simultaneously.
Since you only have to drill one hole, you could probably use any rudder that would fit inside the casting.

Who built your Tornado? Most builders use a unique rudder. From your comments it sounds a Reg White. In general Reg White's have trouble kicking up, Marstrom's have trouble staying locked down.

Mary,
Here are the basics on beach cat rudder heads. The pivoting rudder blade type rudder head has proven itself to be the most practical rudder up and down system for sailing off the beach, through surf, running aground by surprize, etc on beach catamarans.
For this type system to work well, the rudder blade must be submerged into the rudder head the same depth whether the rudder is up or down or halfway up or down. This places the rudder pivot bolt approximately in the center of the rudder head pivot chamber. This means that the rudder head is as wide fore and aft as it is deep vertically. With this rudder head framework, the rudder blade is well supported in the horrizontal position, in the vertical posion or anywhere inbetween. SuperCat, Aquarius Sails makes such a rudder head.
Today's so called 'modern boats' have gone away from the 'off the beach type rudder head' on their beach cats. Today's 'modern beach cat' has a rudder head with no rudder head framework aft of the pivot pin. This means that when the rudder blade is in the up position, there is insufficient rudder blade support. If you try to steer the boat through the surf or across shallow water,POW, you break the top of the rudder off or split the rudder head casting. This 'modern boat' rudder head design has eliminated the aft half of the rudder head support box in a weight savings effort. The net result reduction in rudder head weight is somewhere between one pound and one and a half pounds per rudder head.
Beach cat sailors down hear in South Florida don't appreciate this new design because we sail off beaches and sometimes a sand bar slips up on us.
The shortcomings of this 'modern boat' rudder head design were demonstrated very thoroughly at the Jensen Beach stop in the Worrell 1000 Race about three years ago. More than half the fleet lost their rudder steering systems in the surf due to broken rudder heads and blades.
Good Steering,
Bill

While I agree with Mr. Roberts on his rudder discussion, I would comment that the "Jensen experience" is rather atypical. Most sailors would not choose to launch in head-high surf with an onshore breeze (of less than 10 kts). The largest portion of damage was due to the boats "backing up" on the rudders - in this case, high aspect (deep) rudders.

From what I remember from that fateful morning, the sets were steep, close, and head on with a slight southbound current. The carnage played out as follows:

1) First wave either pushed boats back on their rudders (I'm sure this is not recommended with any rudder system) or kicked them on a broad reach.

2) Second wave flipped them (either because they had no steering, or were beam reaching and couldn't head up fast enough to drive over the next wave), and

3) Third wave pushed the boats on to their mast tips (with that characteristic "pop" noise)

Now, I know some of you out there would love these conditions ( [color:"red"]see JC's boat in the picture - keep in mind that the water is about 6-8 feet deep there [/color] ), but I don't really think any manufacturer could design something strong enough to put up with that punishment for long (and still be reasonable in weight)!

Mr. Waterbug:

Do you have a higher res. version of that photo?

Bill,

If it is not asking too much, I would like to know what you think of the pivoting dagger rudder concept. (attached)

It has the same blade area inside the head all the time, but since the pivot is not in the center, the stresses are quite different.

Thanks!

Unfortunately, I do not have this photo. It's from the Worrell photographer that year, so perhaps contacting Mike W. would help... JC's got a nice glossy of that photo at his house, with which he made that website photo...

A small consolation for all of the stuff they broke that day. Sort of like those Mastercard ads..

Broken masts (2) - $10,000
Swimming lessons for skipper and crew - $50

ONE BAD $SS PICTURE OF TEAM CASTROL GETTING THE SNOT BEATEN OUT OF THEM - [color:"red"]PRICELESS [/color]

Hi Luiz,
I don't like any rudder system that requires the sailor to pump the tiller up and down to raise or lower the rudder and at the same time use the same tiller to steer the boat. This is asking too much of the triller pivot point.
Bill

Bill,

What about the "variation on the same theme" in the attached image? It has no pivot point.

Luiz

Hmmm, how can you say it doesn't have a pivot point? It only doesn't have a pivot point in the light air config, where it also won't be any help if you hit something. In the normal config it definitely has a pivot point.

Hi Luiz,
I like this scheme better than the pump handle one but this one still has problems. 1. When the rudder is kicked up, the leading edge is 4 inches, or so below the keel; not good. It is still on the rocks or in the sand and mud.
2. For a rudder to be properly balanced, about 20% of the rudder area needs to be in front of a vertical axis passing through the pintles. 3. Ropes stretch, so the line holding the rudder down will stretch at speed and this will let the rudder swing aft slightly and the 20% rudder balance area is lost. A mechanical locking scheme works better with a breakaway spring system to release when grounding. What's wrong withg the SC system? It meets all functional requirements.
Bill

Keith,

Bill disliked the tiller's pivot point in the first drawing - not the blade's pivot. The second drawing has no pivot in the tiller, just the blade's pivot.

Re-read with atention the previous posts and drawings.

Cheers,

PS Also the leading edge of the rudder needs to be swept forward at least a couple of degrees, not vertical, to keep the rudder from 'ventilating' at high speed. When I took the first SCs to Hawaii, the sailors there went crazy over the SC rudderhead and how it worked. They said,'this works much better that brand X'. 'WOW, I really like it!'
Pull the green line for GO and the rudder goes down and locks. Pull the red line for STOP and the lock releases and the rudder comes up. If you run aground, the rudder automatically comes up. What could be simplier, Luiz?
Bill

I think he wants a system where it is easy to decrease wetted surface area for light winds

Bill

Thanks for the comments. I will try to build those features into the concept. Most of them are easy enough, but some may be difficult.

There is nothing wrong with the SC rudders, except that it is impossible to reduce the wetted surface without pivoting.

My goal is to have both alternatives available:

Pivoting for accidental grounding, other hits and fast raising AND vertical hoisting, for reduced wetted surface with the same blade section - a usefull feature for light wind sailing and better control in shoal waters.

As you know, I like to investigate new concepts, but in this case I am also trying to make a better rudder for my own boat.

It comes standard with a typical pivoting rudder, but with the engine bracket also pivoting in the rudderhead. This setup is meant to keep weight as far aft as possible, while also keeping the propeller clear from the rudder's foils. It also improves manouverability when motoring, so it is not bad. However, it will make departing/arriving in a shoal shore a bit complicated. The tilted rudder will be as inefective as a tilted beach cat rudder (worse, with foils) AND the engine will be out of the water.

By the way: I did not like the pivoting dagger rudder system used in the F-33. It is a cassete with a blade inside, held by two gudgeons. The lower gudgeon has freedom to disconnect from the cassete (if the blade hits something) and the upper gudgeon has freedom to rotate around the horizontal axis (pivot) additionally to the usual vertical axis. When it pivots, all the stresses go to the upper gudgeon ALONE. It is probably as reinforced as one would expect, but the concept did not convince me. I'd rather keep the rudderhead fixed and pivot the blade only.

Thanks again,
Luiz

Ooops.

Maughan

My ideal would be to couple the best features of the SC rudder with a vertical lifting blade.

Then, I would add a pivoting engine bracket - but for my boat only - beach cats don't need it.

Cheers,

Bill Roberts,

at one point you said
"Pull the green line for GO and the rudder goes down and locks. Pull the red line for STOP and the lock releases and the rudder comes up. If you run aground, the rudder automatically comes up. "

I agree this is a simple concept, and the SC rudders do this very well.

I modified my Nacra 6.0na rudders, much with the help of the pictures and instructions on the 'St. Simons Cat sailor' page. NOw there's NO bungy, so when it pops up, you don't loose all you steering ability. And it pops up when you strike something substantial, or run aground.

And about the line stretching and loosing rudder rake when underway, yea, that WAS a problem. Until, the advice of my good friend Scott Tuma 'Rigging Solutions' owner in Clear Lake TX.
NOw I use a very NON stretchy line for the downhaul line in the 'pivmatics', and when lowering the rudder, I 'seat the rudder against the casting. Then, with the pivmatic still up about two inches, I cleat it hard, then hold my thumb on it while putting it down on the tiller arm.

It works awesome now, and you have to 'uphaul' the rudders and cleat them like a prindle system. Never broke a rudder, or casting in the surf with this set up. It's easy to modify, and inexpensive too.

Todd Bouton