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Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update [Re: Mark Schneider] #208852
04/19/10 08:14 AM
04/19/10 08:14 AM
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 3,224
Roanoke Island ,N.C.
Team_Cat_Fever Offline
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Team_Cat_Fever  Offline
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Roanoke Island ,N.C.
Originally Posted by Mark Schneider
in order to do that we need to make a strong fleet showing at as many regattas (not pure distance race events) as possible.



Schedule???

Sam...you seem to confuse 50 guys who own the same boat and happen to show up at the same event... with 50 class members who have agreed on a goal, mapped out a direction, published a schedule and are committed to making it happen.

Keith's questions about the class direction have not been answered.


Oh God,
Mark made a concise, accurate post that I totally agree with. What's the world coming to.


"I said, now, I said ,pay attention boy!"

The cure for anything is salt water - sweat, tears, or the sea
Isak Dinesen
If a man is to be obsessed by something.... I suppose a boat is as good as anything... perhaps a bit better than most.
E. B. White
-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update [Re: Team_Cat_Fever] #208853
04/19/10 08:26 AM
04/19/10 08:26 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,906
Clermont, FL, USA
David Ingram Offline
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David Ingram  Offline
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Posts: 3,906
Clermont, FL, USA
Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever

Oh God,
Mark made a concise, accurate post that I totally agree with. What's the world coming to.


It only feels wrong the first couple of times.


David Ingram
F18 USA 242
http://www.solarwind.solar

"Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda
"Excuses are the tools of the weak and incompetent" - Two sista's I overheard in the hall
"You don't have to be a brain surgeon to be a complete idiot, but it helps"
Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update [Re: David Ingram] #208860
04/19/10 09:37 AM
04/19/10 09:37 AM
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 3,355
Key Largo, FL and Put-in-Bay, ...
RickWhite Offline

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RickWhite  Offline

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Key Largo, FL and Put-in-Bay, ...
From what I can see, the N20 is a great boat and could continue to be great class. If indeed, Performance does not plan on promoting the class any longer, I would think it is time to grab the bull by the horns.
You do NOT need a factory to make a class.
Even the Shark Catamaran Class is still thriving.., and that is with one lone builder left. At one point they had NO builders (most folks just bought old boats and rebuilt them)

As I mentioned in another post, I can set up a class Forum for the N20 where you can conduct class business. It can be open (where anyone can drop in and see what is going on) or closed (where only members can participate).., your call.
And, you can optionally set it up to send emails to members on each post.
You can also run polls on a regular basis, elect officers, or whatever.
I can set up a moderator(s) of the Forum so you can administrate it.

I would then think you could follow the pattern of a solid, growing, self-relying class and get a constitution, lay out sail criteria, and whatever else that would make the class grow.
You could have a panel of members that could do nothing but promote the class. Set up a National Series Championship, a Nationals, a North Americans, and do whatever the hell you wanted to do.

Even though I am not an owner, I am fond of the design and would love to see this class hang around forever.
Rick


Rick White
Catsailor Magazine & OnLineMarineStore.com
www.onlinemarinestore.com
Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update [Re: RickWhite] #208862
04/19/10 10:08 AM
04/19/10 10:08 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline
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Mark Schneider  Offline
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Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Rick, Don't forget... the Hobie Classes which are no longer built.

Hobie 20
Hobie 18
Hobie 17
Hobie 14

The factory is not the problem... they just don't offer a solution. The Hobie14, 17, 18, 20 class members are keeping the classes alive

Dave and Tawd...
See... you guys are just behind the curve... You should think before you talk... Credit due... you do manage to catch on....

my first post in this thread.

"The question of whether it's too late for the N20 class is only resolved by an agreement among the class members as to the vision going forward.

You should look at the Viper 640 class for inspiration... The boat was given up for dead but a new rig was part of a clear vision and buy in from the sailors resulted in a big rebound centered around a great regatta circuit and now they have a full page add in Sailing World listing their major regattas!

How not to manage the future??? See those dead boats that you just listed...."



crac.sailregattas.com
Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update [Re: Mark Schneider] #208864
04/19/10 10:26 AM
04/19/10 10:26 AM
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 3,224
Roanoke Island ,N.C.
Team_Cat_Fever Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Team_Cat_Fever  Offline
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Posts: 3,224
Roanoke Island ,N.C.
Daves a F18 /ex N20 sailor,now who's behind the curve . Catch up, Mark. You're an ex Dart and Tornado sailor, what's your average?.


"I said, now, I said ,pay attention boy!"

The cure for anything is salt water - sweat, tears, or the sea
Isak Dinesen
If a man is to be obsessed by something.... I suppose a boat is as good as anything... perhaps a bit better than most.
E. B. White
Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update [Re: Team_Cat_Fever] #208866
04/19/10 10:44 AM
04/19/10 10:44 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline
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Mark Schneider  Offline
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Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Hey.... I still have my Dart... IMO... it's the best recreational boat ever built. It's still fun to sail her! Best two man race boat .... Tornado... Best single hander race boat... A class. Best compromise of all three.... F16

Now... the only class association that I have ever belonged to that has a clue is the A class.... maybe that's why the Dart and Tornado are history.

Your mileage might vary!... but... as I noted... your just a little slow on the uptake.... it took you all this time to get an A cat.


crac.sailregattas.com
Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update [Re: Mark Schneider] #208867
04/19/10 10:52 AM
04/19/10 10:52 AM
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 3,224
Roanoke Island ,N.C.
Team_Cat_Fever Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Team_Cat_Fever  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Sep 2002
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Roanoke Island ,N.C.
Originally Posted by Mark Schneider
Hey.... I still have my Dart... IMO... it's the best recreational boat ever built. It's still fun to sail her! Best two man race boat .... Tornado... Best single hander race boat... A class. Best compromise of all three.... F16

Now... the only class association that I have ever belonged to that has a clue is the A class.... maybe that's why the Dart and Tornado are history.

Your mileage might vary!... but... as I noted... your just a little slow on the uptake.... it took you all this time to get an A cat.

And beat you the first time I raced you. Just trying to give you a little more time to work on your skills, or lack there of.


"I said, now, I said ,pay attention boy!"

The cure for anything is salt water - sweat, tears, or the sea
Isak Dinesen
If a man is to be obsessed by something.... I suppose a boat is as good as anything... perhaps a bit better than most.
E. B. White
Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update [Re: Team_Cat_Fever] #208900
04/19/10 07:04 PM
04/19/10 07:04 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,459
Annapolis,MD
Keith Offline
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Keith  Offline
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Posts: 1,459
Annapolis,MD
Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever
Originally Posted by Mark Schneider
in order to do that we need to make a strong fleet showing at as many regattas (not pure distance race events) as possible.



Schedule???

Sam...you seem to confuse 50 guys who own the same boat and happen to show up at the same event... with 50 class members who have agreed on a goal, mapped out a direction, published a schedule and are committed to making it happen.

Keith's questions about the class direction have not been answered.


Oh God,
Mark made a concise, accurate post that I totally agree with. What's the world coming to.


This:


Attached Files
Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update [Re: Keith] #208903
04/19/10 08:04 PM
04/19/10 08:04 PM
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 3,224
Roanoke Island ,N.C.
Team_Cat_Fever Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Team_Cat_Fever  Offline
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Roanoke Island ,N.C.
Originally Posted by Keith
Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever
Originally Posted by Mark Schneider
in order to do that we need to make a strong fleet showing at as many regattas (not pure distance race events) as possible.



Schedule???

Sam...you seem to confuse 50 guys who own the same boat and happen to show up at the same event... with 50 class members who have agreed on a goal, mapped out a direction, published a schedule and are committed to making it happen.

Keith's questions about the class direction have not been answered.


Oh God,
Mark made a concise, accurate post that I totally agree with. What's the world coming to.


This:


I was afraid it was something like that.


"I said, now, I said ,pay attention boy!"

The cure for anything is salt water - sweat, tears, or the sea
Isak Dinesen
If a man is to be obsessed by something.... I suppose a boat is as good as anything... perhaps a bit better than most.
E. B. White
Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update [Re: Team_Cat_Fever] #208912
04/20/10 12:42 AM
04/20/10 12:42 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,459
Annapolis,MD
Keith Offline
veteran
Keith  Offline
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Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,459
Annapolis,MD
Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever
Originally Posted by Keith
Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever
Originally Posted by Mark Schneider
in order to do that we need to make a strong fleet showing at as many regattas (not pure distance race events) as possible.



Schedule???

Sam...you seem to confuse 50 guys who own the same boat and happen to show up at the same event... with 50 class members who have agreed on a goal, mapped out a direction, published a schedule and are committed to making it happen.

Keith's questions about the class direction have not been answered.


Oh God,
Mark made a concise, accurate post that I totally agree with. What's the world coming to.


This:


I was afraid it was something like that.


Dr. Peter Venkman: This forum is headed for a disaster of biblical proportions.
Mayor: What do you mean, "biblical"?
Dr Ray Stantz: What he means is Old Testament, Mr. Mayor, real wrath of Hobie type stuff.
Dr. Peter Venkman: Exactly.
Dr Ray Stantz: Fire and brimstone coming down from the skies! Rivers and seas boiling!
Dr. Egon Spengler: Forty years of Aqua Cat Sailing! Earthquakes, volcanoes...
Winston Zeddemore: The 6.0s rising from the grave!
Dr. Peter Venkman: Human sacrifice, monos and cats living together... mass hysteria!


Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update [Re: Keith] #208992
04/20/10 07:11 PM
04/20/10 07:11 PM
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 932
Solomon's Island, MD
S
samc99us Offline OP
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samc99us  Offline OP
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Posts: 932
Solomon's Island, MD
We need to make a decision on what to do in the next month.

Options:
1) Stick with the factory authorized sail plan upgrade.
2) Screw the factory and get E/P to make a new sail plan, which will then be the class legal sail plan
3) Open sail plan up completely

I think we need to ask what the factory has done for US lately. Yes they keep parts support alive, but are they going to continue selling new boats? Are owners going to keep buying new boats? Dealers feel free to comment.

I am in favor of option 2. E/P makes quality sails that we all love, it lowers the price by excluding the middle man (Factory), and it keeps the boat SMOD.

Why NOT option 3? I don't think this is going to lower cost or improve quality. The market doesn't exist. A select few (I'm in this group) can get sails built at or near cost from there favorite local sail maker, which I'm happy to support, and they'll likely be fast sails, but everyone else is going to pay the same for a set of North or Quantum or Smyth or Landenberger sails as E/P sails, assuming the same quality material. Your likely to pay more because E/P builds more N20 sails than anyone else to my knowledge.

As far as a class war based on who has the fastest sails, I don't think its going to happen. Most of the N20 bunch simply don't have the cash to buy new sails prior to the old ones becoming unusable. The guys that buy new sails fairly often are already at the top of the game, and this just means the rest of us get good used sails at good prices. The only exception to this would be if the top guys starting experimenting with open sails, then selling the crap ones, in essence costing them more money. I don't foresee anyone doing this, as most people aren't rich!


Scorpion F18
Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update [Re: samc99us] #208995
04/20/10 07:46 PM
04/20/10 07:46 PM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,304
Gulf Coast relocated from Cali...
TeamChums Offline
veteran
TeamChums  Offline
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,304
Gulf Coast relocated from Cali...
Are those the only three options? If so, where did they come from?


Lee

Keyboard sailors are always faster in all conditions.
Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update [Re: samc99us] #208996
04/20/10 07:47 PM
04/20/10 07:47 PM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 829
Charleston, SC
NCSUtrey Offline
old hand
NCSUtrey  Offline
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 829
Charleston, SC
Sam, what have YOU done for the CLASS lately? Changing sailplans and whatnot is not the key to growing our class. Introducing people to the thrill that is N20 sailing is the way!
We've got a boat that was designed very well.
The N20 still has a very modern rig, though not necessarily the latest and greatest.
The N20 sailors are fun people, both on and off the race course, and are certainly passionate about the class.
The boat is TOUGH! You can sail it in anything.
It kicks butt in light air.
It kicks butt in heavy air.
It is a well-balanced, easily managed, priced reasonably for entry, established class that will be around for a long, long time.

Quit focusing on the tree and look at the forest.


Trey
Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update [Re: NCSUtrey] #209003
04/20/10 09:24 PM
04/20/10 09:24 PM
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 932
Solomon's Island, MD
S
samc99us Offline OP
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samc99us  Offline OP
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Posts: 932
Solomon's Island, MD
I agree that I've been too focused on a sail plan issue that some member of class are concerned about because of poor performance in one race against another class of boats on corrected time. Failing to mention that 2/3 of those boat were helmed by either ex-Olympians or current professionals. The 3rd had/has lots of experience in offshore conditions. This has been beat to death and I'll drop it for now.

Class Growth (another reason for new sails, to entice people to spend more money as soon as they buy a boat?):

So where is the land on which to plant a forest? I simply don't see it. This is the way I break down the current East Coast HP cat landscape:

SE: Roughly 12 N20's at Tradewinds, most of them SE/Florida boats. Rough interpolation leads to approximately 20 N20's in the southeast, including Florida. One fourth of these boats are owned by Velocity. The other fourth are owned by Team Royal. That's half the SE fleet that are owned by people that usually race the boats in distance events and many of these sailors are semi-pro. Based off similar estimates, the F18's had 14 boats at Tradewinds. There are probably 20-25 F18's in the SE. Many F16's showed up at Tradewinds, 4 showed up at Spring Fever. I bet 10 people OWN F16's in Florida and the SE. The SE and Florida have large A-Cat fleets with typical regattas having >20 boat fleets.

Mid-East: 6 N20's are registered for this weekends race. Probably 10 in the Annapolis area. I would say they have a similar F16 fleet size and growing. Hardly any F18's. Lots of A-Cats

NE: 30+ F18's within 2 hours of Newport (based on #'s from Newport sailors). Only a few N20's left at this point. ?? F16's, decent A-Cat class.

So the only area where the N20 is putting up comparable numbers to the F18 fleets are the SE and the mid-atlantic. The N20 market is offshore distance events, which are prevalent in the SE/Florida and USED TO be prevalent in the mid-atlantic. We need to cater to this market while also enticing the buoy racing crowd (which the boat does well in, and is just as competitive as the F-18 in the larger fleets).

Bottom line: more people are buying F-18's than N20's. Why? They update the hull design so you need a new(er) boat to be competitive, thus the older boats go for relatively cheap to new people in the class. No new N20's have been delivered to the SE, to my knowledge, since the 2006 Alter Cup qualifier. How are WE going to build a class if no one is buying new boats? We aren't.

The other factor is fleet size and available competitions. I bought the N20 simply because I KNOW at every event I race in in NC/SC, there are likely to be 3-4 other boats to race against. The F18's typically bring the same number of boats to these events, so there wasn't a particular reason to go that route. The N20 was also cheaper, and I can distance race it.

We need to drive this market. We need to buy new boats every 3 years so we can sell our old, yet EQUALLY COMPETITIVE boats to someone new and enthusiastic. We need to hook new sailors on the boat by taking them for a ride and showing them what a blast it is. We need a racing circuit with a points trophy to encourage participation in the class. If Todd is right and the N20 is no longer available new from the factory, none of this is going to happen.

Last edited by samc99us; 04/20/10 09:25 PM.

Scorpion F18
Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update [Re: samc99us] #209006
04/20/10 09:43 PM
04/20/10 09:43 PM
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 3,224
Roanoke Island ,N.C.
Team_Cat_Fever Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Team_Cat_Fever  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 3,224
Roanoke Island ,N.C.
Trey,
I don't see where any of the proposals affects your list of strong points for the boat.So now you don't want to do anything? One thing Sam did for the class was buy a boat.
Don't confuse the class with the factory. The factory really does next to nothing and always has for the 10 years I've owned my boat or the previous 8 before that, with other performance products. Standard sales stuff, warranty and parts, but that should come with the purchase, used or new as long as it's in the timeframe.
As the "class" rep tell me what they do for me, besides give a little money to a host club for ALL Nacras to race a Nationals? What else?
Sam,
The N20 is not on the pricelist, which means it won't be promoted. I'm sure if your money is green they'll make you a new one, if you ordered it.
To me #2 is pointless. Why dump the factory if you are going to turn around and do the same thing as #1?
1 and 3 seem to be the 2 choices.
Also who exactly are the semi-pro sailors? What is semi-pro?


"I said, now, I said ,pay attention boy!"

The cure for anything is salt water - sweat, tears, or the sea
Isak Dinesen
If a man is to be obsessed by something.... I suppose a boat is as good as anything... perhaps a bit better than most.
E. B. White
Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update [Re: Team_Cat_Fever] #209009
04/20/10 09:57 PM
04/20/10 09:57 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Jake  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
I like the suggested factory sail plan change - the spinnaker mod at this point. Give it a 12 to 18 month (~maybe 24~) grace period for either kite to be class legal. Run with it and let's talk again. There's not any huge burning urgency here.

Whatever we do and whatever we talk about, let's make sure it's focused on the health of the N20 class. From my perspective, the health of the N20 class is entirely about attracting new sailors. If you guys agree with this, we need to ask ourselves with every decision; "how will this help bring new sailors to the class?" We need to make, for DAMN certain that our decisions don't alienate would-be N20 sailors. There needs to be a clear and decisive positive answer to this single question for EVERY decision made by our group.

I bought into the N20 class in 2003 with the infamous DLW to sail the Tybee 500 because it was the ultimate boat for it. It was a monster and I still look back shaking my head about how little I knew about how to sail that kind of race and sail that boat at the time. Short of running that poor guy over on the beach with all 20 feet of our leeward hull it was an incredible ride. I didn't care about sail shape or how old the design was - I just wanted to be out there doing it on a machine. From then, I've come to really like how balanced and smooth the boat sails - but it still has distinct performance nuances (mostly about being overpowered) that will keep me learning for a long time. One could easily argue, however, that without modern sails, the N20 will start to lose it's perception as the machine that it is - and for that point, I'm in favor of a gradual and planned sail update that will literally take years to complete.

How about you? Why did you start sailing a 20?


(it may be time for some commemorative shirts for DLW...instead of "still a great ride", it should read "where is she now?")


Attached Files
DLW.jpg (150 downloads)

Jake Kohl
Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update [Re: samc99us] #209012
04/20/10 10:14 PM
04/20/10 10:14 PM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,490
On the Water
P.M. Offline
Pooh-Bah
P.M.  Offline
Pooh-Bah

Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,490
On the Water
Wow Sam, do you actually read what you post?


Philip
USA #1006
Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update [Re: Jake] #209015
04/20/10 10:23 PM
04/20/10 10:23 PM
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 3,655
Portland, Maine
T
ThunderMuffin Offline
Carpal Tunnel
ThunderMuffin  Offline
Carpal Tunnel
T

Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 3,655
Portland, Maine
Quote
How about you? Why did you start sailing a 20?


Because it was the boat that was being used to run the Tybee 500 at the time Trey and I had to decide between the 6.0 and the N20.

I came to love how lively it was and how forgiving it was (especially after taking a trip on Jakes Nacra F18!) in front of the front crossbar.

I've come to trust my boat now more than anything else. I know she's sold, strong, and will get me through any of the **** I put it through. Its fast and makes me white-knuckle the tiller downwind still despite having driven it for years.

The first time Trey and I sailed ole Undecided on a cold December day on Lake Wheeler - We went across the lake and back and I said "this is like being strapped to the side of a runaway locomotive". That feeling still persists today. I look back and how inadequately unprepared we were going into our first distance event. Had it not been for a benign year in 2005, we would have surely not finished. Undecided kept us safe. In Daytona, Dave Leonnard came up to our boat, grabbed our shrouds and said "how the hell haven't you lost your mast!?"

I've certainly learned a metric crapton about the boat since then and I'm eternally grateful for the group of sailors that sail the boat. I don't think I met a 20 sailor that I didn't like. Todd comes close but when he whispers sweet nothings in my ear it makes all my hatred pangs disappear :P


Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update [Re: P.M.] #209018
04/20/10 10:39 PM
04/20/10 10:39 PM
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 932
Solomon's Island, MD
S
samc99us Offline OP
old hand
samc99us  Offline OP
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Posts: 932
Solomon's Island, MD
Originally Posted by mummp
Wow Sam, do you actually read what you post?


Yeah, I actually do. I also realize that I went on a bit of a tangent in an effort to prove the current F18 fleet is larger than the N20 on the East Coast, but not so much in the south east.


Scorpion F18
Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update [Re: samc99us] #209029
04/21/10 05:37 AM
04/21/10 05:37 AM
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 887
Crofton, MD
Chris9 Offline
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Chris9  Offline
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Posts: 887
Crofton, MD
You meant North East coast me thinks. There is not an F18 Fleet here in the mid-atlantic that I've seen or heard of.


Chris Allen
Nacra 20 Gertie
www.wrcra.org
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