Karl, Matt, I would like to retract my last sentence. I was assuming USCG meant you'd be face-up, based on my reading of another post here. I've just proven (again) why assuming is such a bad idea.

I'm really more in line with what John just said. I don't care what the final decision is. And, I would never protest anyone over a PFD issue (unless as a PRO, forced by the rule regading a measurer's report, etc.).

However, I stand by what I said earlier. Unless/until the rules are changed, your best option is to follow the rules that are in place at this time. Nothing is stopping anyone from owning a USCG PFD and complying with the rules without any further issue.

And, if you're at any sort of major event, especially where you don't know all of the players, you should expect equipment protests. Part of the game...

Mike

Actually I had to google it to double check my spelling, which to my great surprise was correct the first time.

What can I do to lower myself those two notches again? Its uncomfortable/kinda scary up here.

This might work:
Take a moment please, and indulge in the idea of Mr. Bounds dressed in full sailing attire, floating, face down, butt up in a pool. Now ponder the looks on the tourists face's.....

I have both a CE and USCG PDF. My bags got lost on my way to the Worlds in France and I had to pick a new one up there. I prefer sailing with the European one as it is way more comfortable. I use it for all of my evening sails and most regattas when I notice others using non-USCG equip as well.

I am now on the lookout for a really comfy USCG that matches the one I like. I think it is time for new ones anyway. I replace them every couple of years. Wish I could make my own like I do my harnesses. Then they would be really nice and custom.

As I remember researching the difference I think the CE rating is 50 and the USCG is 55. I think that refers to percentage of flotation compared to the average weight of sized (S,M,L,XL) person. So the USCG would be 10% bigger, that seems like quite a bit to me, and it feels like it.

I will report if I find anything.

Later,
Dan

50 refers to newtons. 50 newtons is the smallest buoyancy aid you can get with a CE marking. Frankly this is probably not enough for long distance racers, but fine for around the buoys when a safety boat is in attendance. Hence the name "buoyancy aid".

The smallest adult US PFD, type I, is 22 lbs, aka 98 newtons. This has almost twice the buoyancy of a CE buoyancy aid and is pretty damn close to a 100 newtons CE Life Jacket. Note, those are no longer called buoyancy aid, but life jacket.

References: CE; US.

your missing the big issue Todd

It's the stinkin throwable on an A cat....

So, my logic/ judgment ...
Yes... I am breaking the law and if stopped by the police... I will pay the fine.... It's just like a seat belt offense.... pisser.

Re the Racing Rules.

The essence of the rules is to establish the ground rules for fair competition. On a single handed catamaran... the throwable requirement has a marginal safety value. (Why wouldn't a laser need the thowable as well. the 16 foot line is arbitrary and capricious in this context) The CE versus Coast Guard approval issue has even less safety value.

My observation is that the class members ignore this prescription.... therefore, I choose to fall in line with the class philosophy.

Is the CE vest a performance advantage... probably.. but I don't think the intention of the rules extends to mandating personal gear restrictions ... (what next... a glove rule).
Again, I choose to fall in line with the class philosophy.

Therefore, my personal choice is to judge that I am not gaining an unfair advantage and I am also consistent with the class culture in not enforcing that prescription on my competitors.

If protested by a class member who does not exercise good judgment, I will dsq myself before the hearing and allow the class members to deal with the aftermath.

If the PRO or RC protests me... I will dsq myself and never return to the event.

As I noted... good judgment is needed all around...

This prescription is an issue of the rules ONLY when someone elevates it to the level. Sailboat racing is a social contract between competitors and Race management ... the game is bound by the OD class rules, the RRS, Prescriptions AND GOOD JUDGMENT.

If the class you sail in does not have members with good judgment... instead of changing the vest... change the class or switch to a class with no fools!

FYI, Rules can be ADDED (not just ignored) ..
CRAC dealt with distance racing equipment rules in a similar manner.

We have no authority or wisdom to counter or supersede coast guard regulation. Moreover, we have no off shore safety gear requirements for beach cat racing. However, We do specify a list of gear for distance races and you will be dsq if you don't have it on a spot check.

Our solution... We simply require a specified list of gear to race...If we insisted you tape a kewpie doll to your boom... So be it... If that required hand held radio gear proves useful to you as you drift demasted out there... Wow...what a coincidence!

Again... it's both the rules... AND the culture of good judgment that makes it work.

One of fleet members was dsq'd for not following these rules in the past.

Mmmm. Not quite. The type almost universally worn is a USCG Type III, which has only 15.5 lbs = 69 newtons of flotation.

Thanks, Matt - I was in the middle of comparing gear. You saved me the time.

Right


A personal choice that could land you in the room if there are sailors at the event who do not prescribe to this chosen philosophy…


That would actually be up to the jury to decide. Trust me, no one wants to be in these protests, including the judges.


Yeah, let it be someone else’s problem… Please…
Actually, the correct scoring would be RAF, and the jury may elect to hear the protest anyway, which could lead to a “slightly different” score.


Now THAT will teach them!


I agree…

For the avoidance of doubt:

RRS 60.2: However, when the race committee receives a report required by rule 43.1(c) or 78.3, it shall protest the boat.

RRS 43.1(c) When an equipment inspector or a measurer in charge of weighing clothing and equipment believes a competitor may have broken rule 43.1(a) or 43.1(b) he shall report the matter in writing to the race committee.

RRS 78.3 When an equipment inspector or a measurer for an event decides that a boat or personal equipment does not comply with the class rules, he shall report the matter in writing to the race committee.

So, Rule 2 aside, if your event has a measurer that is part of a culture that accepts certain rules to be broken, you won’t be likely to be protested by an RC or PC (certainly not by me), unless there is some other agenda.

We are really trained to serve the sailors, but obviously, there are things that can get out of hand. While a lot of this is common sense and good judgement is expected, this is one of the few areas of the rule book where the RC is actually required to protest.

Remember, you could always be protested by another competitor, unless there is language in the approved SIs that take away that option (as we were discussing earlier in the thread).

Mike

Just to clarify things to all.

Bouyancy aids are merely intended to not have you watertreading to keep your airways sufficiently above water. As such you can survive longer without wearing yourself out or when you cramp up.

Life vest are indeed a whole different category.

In my opinion it is very wise to make a differentiation between the two uses as CE has done.

Wouter

Duh. Yeah, like Matt said.

If you looked at the rules very strictly then one of these would be allowed right?
Provided it is USCG approved obviously...

Yup - some teams have been wearing that kind of manually inflatable PFD in the Tybee...I've got a USCG approved one I'm going to try and see if I like it. I'm a little worried about the lack of personal storage though.


(and hey! all of a sudden I can get back on here at work...wonder how long that will last?).

If that's a Type V PFD, then:

1. in order to count as being on board, it must be worn, and
2. the wearer must be 16 years or older.

Inflatable PFDs (especially automatic inflation PFDs) are not a popular choice for catsailors. They can inflate at inconvenient times - such as if you get teabagged, or snag the pull-tab on a shroud. They also need more maintenance and must be rearmed (at additional cost) after activation.

Regards,
Eric

I've got one and stopped using it because it's not very comfy,can accidentally deploy, and it doesn't give you any impact protection(shrouds, daggerboards ,booms). I've found I need that more lately.
Plus, Jake, everytime I can get close enough to you,on or off the boat, I'm gonna pull your ripcord.
Tawd

The PFD Conundrum is that they hinder swimming and tend to crawl up over the head when floating stationary. But true when not in use they do actually work pretty good.

I know someone who uses one of those, but he's disabled it to prevent accidental discharge. That strikes me as 1) not meeting the rule any better than a CE vest, and 2) not meeting minimum self-preservation standards.

If you get knocked out the inflatables are useless. The auto ones will deploy on a cat due to the amount of spray and a manual won't do a thing when your bell got rung. To me they are WAY less safe than a CE approved vest, yet they are deemed CG certified and if I recall the logic was they are more comfortable and users are more likely to wear them. Exactly the same argument FOR a CE approved vest.

USCG regulations require PFDs to be in good working condition. If the inflator has been disabled, he is in violation of the law and the rules.

The modification to a jacket issue was raised in the Tornado class at the OCR's here on catsailor a few years ago. (some flotation was removed) Photo's of the modification provided primae facia evidence.

Result.... the class culture trumped the rules in the judgment of the sailors in that class and life went on without a DSQ.

So, ... What's the problem?.... Why the photo's in the first place? Answer, The class culture is hardly transparent! The RRS, Appeals book, Prescriptions and Class rule book are down in print.... available to anyone. Class culture... not so much. The Tornado poster was not up to speed on this particular fudge at the time. In the end... it all worked out.

JW reports that he personally survey's the entries at a regatta and picks from the quiver of vests.... The solution to his conundrum is for the F18 class to exercise their collective judgment and get the word out.

Remember... the entire hullabaloo came to the fore about a DSQ at an important junior regatta where the OA made it clear before hand that they would be checking for USCG vests. The DSQ'd sailor used poor judgment in this case. The adults decided to over ride any class culture in the junior classes... One can always question their judgment.... your milage may vary. Setting the kid issues aside...

The conundrum is simply a class issue.